大多數(shù)泰國華人有多“中國化”？
How "Chinese" are most Thai-Chinese?
譯文簡介
我是澳大利亞華人。
正文翻譯
How "Chinese" are most Thai-Chinese?
大多數(shù)泰國華人有多“中國化”？
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我是澳大利亞華人。我所在的大學(xué)有很多在澳大利亞出生/長大的華人（我們稱他們?yōu)?ABC），也有很多來自亞洲的留學(xué)生。在我看來，我們在文化上通常比大多數(shù)東南亞華人更“中國化”；我們中的許多人都能說一口流利的普通話，行為舉止也與白人不同，即使我們明顯“西化”了。
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最近，我在這里遇到了一批泰國籍的華人留學(xué)生。我的印象是，他們似乎與“中國化”相去甚遠(yuǎn)？我認(rèn)為他們中的大多數(shù)人都不會說中文，而且都只有泰文名字。從外貌上看，他們中的大多數(shù)人也不像真正的中國人，看起來比 ABC 更矮。這讓我很好奇，維基百科上說泰國有 1000 萬華人。他們中有多少人還在遵循“中國傳統(tǒng)”？
此外，大多數(shù)泰國華人對中國持何種政治立場？在我的印象中，一些海外華人（如馬來西亞華人或菲律賓華人）是比較親華的。澳大利亞華人和美國華人（父母來自中國大陸）對此大多持中立態(tài)度，或者閉口不談。公開持否定態(tài)度的人不多，但也不是超級親華派。
Thailand
I think most of them cannot really speak Chinese and have Thai names.
That is true.
Thai-Chinese people have assimilated into Thai culture over the generations and many of them don't speak a word of Chinese.
“我認(rèn)為他們中的大多數(shù)人都不會說中文，而且都只有泰文名字?！?br /> 確實(shí)如此。
泰籍華人經(jīng)過幾代人的努力，已經(jīng)融入了泰國文化，很多人一句中文都不會說。
Even if they do natively speak Chinese, it's likely not Manadarin, but a different dialect.
Those who speak Manadarin mostly learned it as a second language, but it's a choice, not done by routine like sending kids to a Mandarin-language school for the Chinese in Malaysia.
Very few are native speakers of Mandarin, but there are a few, like descendants of KMT soldiers up in Thaton.
即使他們的母語是中文，也很可能不是普通話，而是另一種方言。
會說普通話的人大多是作為第二語言學(xué)習(xí)的，但這是一種選擇，而不是像馬來西亞華人那樣把送孩子去普通話學(xué)校作為傳統(tǒng)。
以普通話為母語的人很少，但也有少數(shù)人，比如在 Thaton 的國民黨士兵的后代。
Lived in both Malaysia and Thailand.
I would say Thai Chinese are the most assimilated overseas Chinese group I have ever met. My theory is because Thai and Chinese cultures have much in common, so accepting, they inter married for generations and eventually blended in. But for Malaysians and Indonesians especially, Islam forbids inter faith marriages, and therefore kept the groups isolated. Filipino Chinese are also very well intergrated.
曾在馬來西亞和泰國生活過。
我想說泰國華人是我見過的被同化得最好的海外華人群體。我的觀點(diǎn)是因?yàn)樘﹪椭袊幕泻芏喙餐c(diǎn)，所以可以互相接受，他們世代通婚并最終融合在一起。但特別是對于馬來西亞人和印度尼西亞人來說，伊斯蘭教禁止不同信仰之間的婚姻，因此使這些群體處于孤立狀態(tài)。菲律賓華人也融入得很好。
There was also a strict policy of forced assimilation from the Thai government.
泰國政府還實(shí)行嚴(yán)格的強(qiáng)制同化政策。
Those are Pre ww2 and Cold War era policy though.
不過，這些都是二戰(zhàn)前和冷戰(zhàn)時期的政策。
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Sure, but almost all Chinese immigrants had arrived by then.
是的，但幾乎所有的中國移民都是在那時候抵達(dá)的。
Filipino Chinese especially the very rich ones dont like marrying offspring to filipinos. There is also rivalry between Chinese/new rich and spanish/old guard filipino businessmen.
菲律賓華人，尤其是非常富有的人，不喜歡將后代嫁給菲律賓人。華人/新富商和西班牙裔/守舊的菲律賓商人之間也存在競爭。
Is this also true of Thai-Chinese?
泰國華人也是如此嗎？
It's not a case of families being like "You should marry another Chinese", but more like make sure you marry someone from a decent socioeconomic status. Most Thai-Chinese don't view marrying Thais of other ethnicities as a negative (unsurprising since most of us view ourselves as Thai and don't really differentiate people by ethnicities here because there's so much mixing). Probably less of a stigma than a White American marrying a Black or Latino American.
這并不是那種家人會說“你應(yīng)該再找一個中國人結(jié)婚”的情況，而更像是要確保你嫁/娶的人要有良好的社會經(jīng)濟(jì)地位。大多數(shù)泰籍華人并不認(rèn)為與其他族裔的泰國人結(jié)婚是一件壞事（這并不奇怪，因?yàn)槲覀兇蠖鄶?shù)人都認(rèn)為自己是泰國人，而且由于混血兒太多，這里的人并不會真的按族裔來區(qū)分）。這可能比美國白人與美國黑人或拉丁裔美國人結(jié)婚的障礙要小。
I am Thai, born in Thailand, and grew up in Thailand. Most people around me have Chinese lineage (myself included), but I do not remember meeting any who would consider themselves to be "Thai-Chinese". We're just Thais. And if you ask them specifically to elaborate, they might say ????????????????. I also don't know anyone who speaks Chinese beyond some borrowed words passed on.
我是泰國人，在泰國出生，在泰國長大。我周圍的大多數(shù)人都有中國血統(tǒng)（包括我自己），但我不記得見過任何自認(rèn)為是“泰籍華人”的人。我們只是泰國人。如果你特別要求他們詳細(xì)說明，他們可能會說???????????????。我也不認(rèn)識任何會說中文的人，除了一些借用過來的詞匯。
Did you grow up in Bangkok? If so I'd be surprised you don't know any Thai-Chinese with stronger lixs to Chinese culture/language.
Thai-Chinese families obviously still form the economic and political elite, but even upper-middle class Thais mostly have some Chinese heritage.
From my personal experience they often still speak a bit of mandarin or more often a Southern Chinese language with their parents and grandparents but can't write. They may have picked up a bit of mandarin in school or kindergarten but are far from fluent.
Their food at home is often a lot less spicy than Thai food, but in terms of what they eat it's a mix of Thai and Southern Chinese cuisine. Chinese festivals and customs are somewhat observed because older family members insist on it.
So again, OP is probably right that the younger Thai-Chinese are a lot less Chinese than ABC, but there's still the family lixs.
你是在曼谷長大的嗎？如果是的話，我很驚訝你不認(rèn)識任何與中國文化/語言有更緊密聯(lián)系的泰國華人。
泰籍華人家庭顯然仍是經(jīng)濟(jì)和政治精英，而且即使是中上階層的泰國人也大多有一些中國血統(tǒng)。
根據(jù)我的親身經(jīng)歷，他們通常仍會說一點(diǎn)普通話，或者會經(jīng)常性地與父母和祖父母說一種中國南方語言，但不會寫字。他們可能在學(xué)校或幼兒園學(xué)過一點(diǎn)普通話，但不流利。
他們在家里吃的食物通常沒有泰國菜那么辣，但就吃的東西而言，是泰國菜和中國南方菜的混合體。由于年長的家庭成員的堅持，他們多少會遵守一點(diǎn)中國的節(jié)日和習(xí)俗。
因此，OP 說年輕的泰籍華人比 ABC 的“中國化”少很多，這可能是對的，但家庭聯(lián)系仍然存在。
I did grew up in Bangkok. I don't know any Thais my age that speak any sort of Chinese at home with their parents. My mother doesn't speak any, but her parents (my grandparent) did. On technicality aspect, I am a quarter Chinese. But I am Thai. Many people in my situation will still identify as Thai, not Thai-Chinese.
Thai-Chinese families obviously still form the economic and political elite, but even upper-middle class Thais mostly have some Chinese heritage.
The only people who would say they are Thai-Chinese is if their parents who grew up in Thailand (regardless of how "strong" their Chinese blood may be), married a "foreigner" from literal China. Sorry but Thais don't go around calling themselves Chinese.
我確實(shí)是在曼谷長大的。我不知道有哪個和我同齡的泰國人在家里和父母說任何形式的中文。我母親不會說中文，但她的父母（我的祖父母）會說。從技術(shù)上講，我有四分之一的華人血統(tǒng)。但我是泰國人。許多像我這樣的人仍然會認(rèn)為自己是泰國人，而不是泰國華人。
“泰籍華人家庭顯然仍是經(jīng)濟(jì)和政治精英，而且即使是中上階層的泰國人也大多有一些中國血統(tǒng)?！?br /> 唯一會說自己是泰籍華人的人，是他們在泰國長大的父母（不管他們的中國血統(tǒng)“濃不濃”），和一個來自字面意義上的中國的“外國人”結(jié)了婚。不好意思，泰國人不會到處跟人說自己是華人。
mom is Chinese by blood, born in Thailand the 8th eldest. Her grandma and grandpa migrated here from com...st China, from both mother and father side. She is 0% thai by blood, and 100% by association and all practical senses. After living in bangkok for 64 years, she still gets the occasional “how come your thai is so good?” when we’re out in public
to rebutal your definitive statement on how thai-Chinese act, she most certainly refers to many aspects of her life as Chinese. And, she identifies herself as being Chinese by blood quite often(i probably hear a comment a week). She cooks and eats Chinese. Chinese number beliefs and feng shui in the house are two good examples. The whole family is like this, of 7 siblings. Their offspring, myself and my cousins, surely not. So I think while you may be accurate about YOUR interactions, age, or friend group, you are missing a large group of Thai-Chinese in this country that most definitely associate with being Chinese.
我媽媽是華人血統(tǒng)，出生在泰國，排行第八。她的奶奶和爺爺都是從gczy中國移民到這里的，包括母親和父親。她有 0% 的泰國血統(tǒng)，但從行為舉止和所有的觀感來看，她是 100% 的泰國人。在曼谷生活了 64 年后，當(dāng)我們在公共場合外出時，她偶爾還是會被問到“你的泰語怎么這么好？”
為了反駁你關(guān)于泰國華人行為方式的定論，她絕對會把自己生活中的很多方面都說成是中國化的。而且，她經(jīng)常在血統(tǒng)上認(rèn)為自己是中國人（我可能每周都會聽到一次）。她做中國菜、吃中國菜。中國對數(shù)字的信仰和房屋風(fēng)水就是兩個很好的例子。全家人都是這樣，包括兄弟姐妹7人。而他們的后代，即我和我的表兄弟，肯定不會。所以我認(rèn)為，雖然你對與自己交往過的、年齡相似的或朋友圈的人的看法可能是準(zhǔn)確的，但你漏掉了這個國家的一大群泰國華人，他們絕對會把自己與中國文化聯(lián)系在一起。
Most of them, if you ask if they're Chinese, they will say "no, Thai." But if you ask them about their grandparents or great grandparents, they will often say, yes, one or more of their grandparents are Chinese. This is especially true with rural Thais. From what I've found, it seems only wealthy, business-owning Thais will always respond with "yes" if you ask if they're Chinese/mixed. For example, my wife is from a rural village in central Thailand. She wouldn't ever randomly claim she is mixed, but after I asked her, she told me she is Thai-Khmer-Chinese, but obviously she just claims she is Thai. I doubt anyone besides her family even knows that, because to her, she's just Thai. Doesn't know anything about China, Cambodia, etc.
I get it though. I'm only a second generation American. My grandparents are from Germany, but they never taught my mom or dad any German language or culture, even though they can all speak German, and I have contact with my German relatives in Germany. I'm just American, since that's all I know. Sure my lineage comes from Germany but it stops in America. The most German culture I have is a German soup both sides cooked and passed down to my mom and dad.
他們中的大多數(shù)人，如果你問他們是不是華人，他們大多會說“不是，是泰國人”。但如果你問他們的祖父母或曾祖父母，他們經(jīng)常會說，是的，他們的祖父母中的一位或多位是中國人。這種情況在泰國農(nóng)村尤為明顯。據(jù)我所知，似乎只有富有、經(jīng)商的泰國人在你問他們是否是中國人/混血兒時才會回答“是”。例如，我的妻子來自泰國中部的一個鄉(xiāng)村。她從來不會隨便說自己是混血兒，但在我問她之后，她告訴我她是泰國-高棉-中國混血兒，但顯然她只是說自己是泰國人。我懷疑除了她的家人，還有誰知道這一點(diǎn)，因?yàn)閷λ齺碚f，她只是泰國人。她對中國、柬埔寨等地一無所知。
不過我也能理解。我只是第二代美國人。我的祖父母來自德國，但他們從未教過我的父母任何德語或德國文化，盡管他們都會說德語，我也與德國的親戚有聯(lián)系。我只是美國人，因?yàn)槲抑恢烂绹?。?dāng)然，我的血統(tǒng)來自德國，但止步于美國。我所擁有的最多的德國文化就是雙方都煮過并傳給我父母的德國湯。
actually on a side note, like I just said in another longer comment in this thread the majority of the Chinese population in thailand was of ethnic teochew descent and spoke teochew.
what most people are ignorant to is that different Chinese ethnic groups have DIFFERENT NAMES- wong and chan for example are ethnic cantonese names.
the teochew have names that are verrrry almost south east asian sounding, like Beh or Ng. So perhaps they have retained their names to some degree just most people dont realise those are teochew names
其實(shí)話說回來，就像我剛才在本貼的另一個樓中樓里所說的，泰國的大多數(shù)華人都是潮汕人后裔，講潮汕話。
大多數(shù)人不知道的是，不同的華人族群有不同的名字--例如，“王”（wong）和“陳”（chan）就是廣東人的名字。
潮州人的名字聽起來非常像東南亞人的名字，比如 Beh 或 Ng。因此，也許他們在某種程度上保留了自己的名字，只是大多數(shù)人沒有意識到那是潮州人的名字。
9 out of 10 of my colleague have Chinese origin. But all of them doesn't speak mandarin or any dialect anymore, even their parent too.
For majority, the only Chinese thing they have now i guess still following older family tradition for worshipping or prayer. Chinese New Year, qingming, vegeterian festival, or have some Chinese god statue at home e.g. Fu Lu Shou. Some may have nickname related to family.
我的 10 個同事中有 9 個是華人。但他們都不會說普通話或任何方言了，甚至他們的父母也是。
對于大多數(shù)人來說，他們現(xiàn)在唯一有中國特色的東西，我想是還遵循老一輩的家庭傳統(tǒng)來崇拜或祈禱。春節(jié)、清明節(jié)、素齋節(jié)，或者在家里供奉一些中國神像，如福祿壽。有些人可能有在家庭使用的綽號。
Do they still identify as Thai-Chinese in terms of social group for personal and business relationships? Or do they not see themselves as distinct from other Thais?
在個人和商業(yè)關(guān)系的社會群體方面，他們?nèi)匀徽J(rèn)為自己是泰國華人嗎？還是他們認(rèn)為自己與其他泰國人沒有區(qū)別？
I'm 5th generation Chinese descent but we see ourselves as Thais. This was since my grand mother who never force us to learn Chinese and taught us to be Thais.
We would say we are Thai with Chinese descent but not Thai-Chinese.
我是第五代華裔，但我們認(rèn)為自己是泰國人。這是因?yàn)槲业淖婺笍牟粡?qiáng)迫我們學(xué)中文，而是教我們做泰國人。
我們會說我們是有中國血統(tǒng)的泰國人，但不是泰國華人。
So not like in Malaysia for example where Chinese ethnic citizens generally consider themselves a separate group. (I suppose the government also treats Malays and Chinese differently too).
所以不像在馬來西亞，那里的華裔公民通常認(rèn)為自己是一個獨(dú)立的群體。（我想政府對馬來人和華人也是區(qū)別對待的）。
Malaysia is well known for it's pluralist demography. Chinese, Malaysia and Indians have their own little quasi nations
馬來西亞以其多元化的人口結(jié)構(gòu)而聞名。華人、馬來人和印度人都有自己的小小準(zhǔn)國家
Put it this way - if you put at 100% ethnic Chinese Thai (e.g. me) with a China-Chinese person and a 100% "native" Thai person (whatever that means), we would feel closer and identify more with the Thai person most of the time.
We don't try to associate more with other Thai-Chinese as a social group or give preferential treatment in personal/business relationship, but because Thai-Chinese tend to come from wealthier socio-economic backgrounds, we end up in settings that naturally put us in contact with a lot of other Thai-Chinese (e.g. competitive schools, professional workplace, etc.)
No, if a "native" Thai person of similar socioeconomic background ends up in the same setting, they wouldn't feel out of place since we all identify as Thai and feel that we are from the same culture. If a foreign Chinese end up in one of these groups and doesn't speak Thai, THEY would be the one viewed us the foreigner/outsider (however, if they speak fluent Thai most people can easily regard them as Thai mentally. It's very easy to "become" Thai in that sense).
這么說吧--如果你把 100%的泰籍華人（比如我）與一個中國人和一個 100%的“土生土長”的泰國人（不管那是什么意思）放在一起，我們會感覺更親近，大多數(shù)時候會更認(rèn)同泰國人。
我們并沒有試圖作為一個社會群體與其他泰國華人建立更多的聯(lián)系，也沒有在個人/商業(yè)關(guān)系中給予優(yōu)待，但由于泰國華人往往來自更富裕的社會經(jīng)濟(jì)背景，我們最終會在一些環(huán)境中自然而然地接觸到很多其他泰國華人（例如競爭激烈的學(xué)校、專業(yè)工作場所等）。
而且不，如果一個具有類似社會經(jīng)濟(jì)背景的“本土”泰國人出現(xiàn)在同樣的環(huán)境中，他們不會覺得格格不入，因?yàn)槲覀兌颊J(rèn)同自己是泰國人，覺得我們來自同一種文化。如果一個外籍華人出現(xiàn)在這些群體中，并且不會說泰語，那么他們就會被視為外國人/外來者（但是，如果他們能說一口流利的泰語，大多數(shù)人就會從心理上把他們視為泰國人。從這個意義上講，“成為”泰國人是非常容易的）。
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So not like in Malaysia where Chinese would be offended if you thought they were Malay ethnicity?
所以不像在馬來西亞，如果你把一個華人認(rèn)作馬來人，他們會感到被冒犯？
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Yes, definitely not like that from my experience
是的，根據(jù)我的經(jīng)驗(yàn)，絕對不會這樣
You make a lot of sense, but there are also Chinese Thais who will exclusively seek out other people of Chinese descent for marriage. It's a minority but it exists.
你說得很有道理，但也有一些泰國華人專門尋找其他華裔人士結(jié)婚。雖然是少數(shù)，但確實(shí)存在。
Yes, I think there are but it's not common.
是的，我認(rèn)為有，但并不常見。
There was a period of famine in Southern China a few generations ago, causing large numbers of Chinese to migrate to Thailand. These Chinese have largely intermarried with Thais, giving rise to the large number of Thai-Chinese in Thailand today.
Most Thai-Chinese speak little Chinese, but still celebrate holidays like Chinese New Year and Tomb Sweeping Day with their families. They tend to live in the cities and have a strong culture of entrepreneurship, so most of the wealthier people in Thailand have some Chinese heritage.
There are varying degrees of "Chinese-ness" within Thai-Chinese families. Some might only have a single great-grandfather who was born in China, with all other ancestors being Thai. Others might have married between Chinese families and preserved more of their Chinese culture.
幾代人以前，中國南方曾發(fā)生過饑荒，導(dǎo)致大量中國人移居泰國。這些中國人在很大程度上與泰國人通婚，形成了今天泰國大量的泰籍華人。
大多數(shù)泰籍華人幾乎不會說中文，但仍會與家人一起慶祝春節(jié)和清明節(jié)等節(jié)日。他們多居住在城市，有很強(qiáng)的創(chuàng)業(yè)文化，因此泰國大多數(shù)較富裕的人都有一些中國血統(tǒng)。
泰國華人家庭的“中國化”程度各不相同。有些家庭可能只有一個曾祖父出生在中國，其他祖先都是泰國人。還有一些人可能與中國家庭通婚，保留了更多的中國文化。
There was a historical backlash against the Chinese in Bangkok some decades ago. There is a term Thaification that was a policy somewhat forcing Thai Chinese to change their names. The affluent Thai Chinese I know really don't consider themselves Chinese, speak Chinese and would be insulted if they were referred to as anything but Thai. With that said some small things like red envelopes have stuck around.
幾十年前，曼谷曾發(fā)生過針對華人的歷史性抵制。有一個詞叫“泰化”，是一種強(qiáng)制泰國華人改名的政策。我認(rèn)識的那些富裕的泰國華人并不認(rèn)為自己是中國人，他們說中文，如果別人不稱他們?yōu)樘﹪?，他們會覺得受到了侮辱。盡管如此，一些像紅包這樣的小東西還是保留了下來。
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