S13紅迪討論帖：為什么沒人討論JDG？他們是有史以來最厲害的隊伍！

bobthebobsledbuilder
I completely disagree with this take. It's very exciting watching teams of destiny win it all. We've never seen a team complete the golden road, having either T1 or JDG in the finals is hype

我完全不同意這個角度?？粗切┟ㄚA下比賽的隊伍贏下比賽，這本身就是非常值得興奮的一件事。我們從來都沒有見識過哪支隊伍能夠完成黃金大滿貫，T1或者JDG無論哪支隊伍能進總決賽都會很有意思

EMPOLGATED
I completely disagree with your take. Yes they play beautiful league. They're the strongest in all roles. They win all the time. It was fun to watch for a while, but now my reaction is just: "No shit, the 16 million dollar superteam won again. Oh wow I did not expect that at all."

我完全不同意你的看法。沒錯，他們打的比賽確實很優(yōu)美。他們在所有位置上都是最強大的。他們能夠一直贏比賽。偶爾看一陣子還覺得有趣，但是現(xiàn)在我的反應(yīng)就變成了：“別吧，1600萬美元的銀河戰(zhàn)艦又贏了。哦天哪我真是完全沒期待他們會贏呢。”

There's no suspense. There's no upsets. There's no drama. I'm not entertained.

沒什么懸念，沒什么失望，沒什么劇本。一點樂子沒有。

They're basically Manchester City. So perfect it's boring.

他們差不多就是曼城。完美到無聊。

Maybe you enjoy watching stomps, and that's fine. But to me there's nothing more boring than a foregone conclusion.

或許你喜歡看碾壓局，那確實可以。但在我看來，沒什么比一場已經(jīng)注定的結(jié)局更無聊的故事了。

thehoghunter
T1’s roster is the second most expensive at worlds. Likely not much cheaper than JDGs. If you want to support the plucky underdogs who had very little expectations coming into the year, there’s a team on the other side of the bracket that fits the bill.

T1的陣容也是世界賽第二貴的?？赡軟]有比JDG便宜到哪去。如果你想要支持沒人覺得的會贏的真正的黑馬的話，那么另外一邊有一只隊伍能滿足你的需求。

puberty1
I agree but at the same time we know that the winner of the series will most likely win it all - both T1 and JDG have played against BLG and have won against them. Maybe WBG can surprise and win against BLG so finals could have some surprise but I would bet in a 3-0 for T1/JDG

我同意，但與此同時，我們都知道能贏下這場比賽的人，八成就能贏下總決賽了——T1和JDG都和BLG打過，并且都贏過他們?；蛟SWBG能給我們一個驚喜，拿下BLG進入總決賽，但我還是愿意賭T1或者JDG在總決賽3：0碾壓。

Ruttunaama
I think part of it is that people are thinking that JDG is the best team and favorite to win by default, so much more attention is being directed to the challengers who are trying to take them down

我覺得部分原因在于，人們都認為JDG是最厲害的隊伍，最有希望能贏的就是他們，所以更多的注意力就被吸引到了那些在試著拿下他們的挑戰(zhàn)者的身上。

Treewithatea
Wrong reasons my friend. Truth is, few people from the West watch LPL, there are a lot more western LCK fans, always have been. 10 years ago OGN had control over the korean League and offered a damn good experience for english viewers while the english broadcast for the LPL was never that big. During the first few years Korea was also a better region than China, so if Korea has a much better broadcast for english viewers as well as better teams, whats the point of tuning into the LPL?

原因都錯了，我的朋友。事實是，西方幾乎沒幾個人看LPL。LCK的西方粉絲要多得多，幾乎一直以來就是如此。十年前，OGN控制著韓國的英雄聯(lián)盟比賽，為英語觀眾提供了十分優(yōu)秀的觀賽體驗，而LPL的英語播報從來就沒好過。在比賽的前幾年，韓國也是比中國更厲害的賽區(qū)，所以如果韓國既能給英語觀眾提供更好的賽事轉(zhuǎn)播，又能提供更好的隊伍的話，那還有什么理由去看LPL呢？

Theres just more of a connection between South Korea and the west, not just the long standing english quality broadcast but also politically. The west and south korea are allies and theres much more of a cultural exchange between the west and south korea over the west and China. There isnt much of a cultural exchange between the west and China, the english broadcast hasnt been awfully popular and generally its not easy to get into the LPL as a new fan due to the cheer amount of teams and games played.

韓國和西方之間的關(guān)系也更緊密，不只是長期高水準(zhǔn)的英語轉(zhuǎn)播，也包括政治。西方和韓國是盟友，所以雙方的文化交流比起西方和中國要更多。中國和西方之間的文化交流并不算多，并且他們的英語轉(zhuǎn)播也并沒有那么火，總地來說作為一名新觀眾，想要進入LPL的社區(qū)沒那么容易，因為他們的隊伍和比賽數(shù)量都很多。

If you watch any pro streams or listen to podcasts by experts of the pro scene, literally all of them have the highest praise for JDG and think of them as the clear tournament favorite.

但如果你看職業(yè)選手的直播，或者去聽職業(yè)領(lǐng)域?qū)＜业牟┛偷脑?，基本上所有人都會給JDG最高的評價，認為他們是這屆賽事最大的熱門。

kubuto
Never helped that the English lpl production was bootleg level, I remember at one point it was being casted in Australia. And they always used random casters and then when they got experience and proved to be good they went to Europe or America's. So many of the casters now that are good casted bootleg English lpl

沒辦法，LPL的英語節(jié)目制作真的只有業(yè)余水準(zhǔn)，我記得之前有一次他們是在澳大利亞播的。而且他們永遠只會使用路人主持人，等到他們有經(jīng)驗，證明自己有實力之后，他們就會去歐洲或者美洲。今天很多的主持人都是從LPL的業(yè)余轉(zhuǎn)播那里發(fā)展出來的。

turtleonfire
Yeah early LPL production was so shit, the streams were unwatchable. And god forbid you try to watch Demacia cup. Meanwhile OGN had amazing production and cozy Doa/Monte/Chobra streams

沒錯，早期的LPL節(jié)目制作真的就是一坨屎，他們的直播都沒法看?？蓜e提看個德瑪西亞杯有多惡心了。與此同時，OGN的節(jié)目制作卻非常優(yōu)秀，并且他們擁有舒服的Doa/Monte/Chobra直播三人組。

itzaminsky
I second the broadcast part, I used to watch the LCK like 7 years ago because it was the best league and the casters were great, I would have loved to watched LPL as the playstyle was so different (LCK macro and methodical, LPL FIGHT EVERYTHING KILL EVERYONE) but the broadcast availability was never quite there.

我認同轉(zhuǎn)播質(zhì)量這部分。我大概七年前看LCK，因為當(dāng)時他們就是最棒的賽區(qū)，并且主持人也都不錯，我本來很樂意看LPL，因為他們的打法非常不同（LCK講究運營和方法論，LPL就是干他媽的把人全殺了），但他們的轉(zhuǎn)播從來比不上。

The cultural political aspect is quite meh as it’s not like league gets into culture almost at all (for good honestly)

文化和政治方面的看法我其實沒什么感覺，畢竟英雄聯(lián)盟一直都跟文化沒什么關(guān)系（說實話這挺好的）

Random_Useless_Tips
The cultural political aspect is overblown. If it exists at all, it is honestly more likely targeted Sinophobia.

文化政治方面的說法有點過頭了。如果真的存在的話，說實話也大多都是跟恐華有點關(guān)系。

Partly the point of sportswashing is to override people’s moral values through positive association to create dissonance.

通過投資運動來洗白，部分原因就是通過和積極向上的組織合作，制造認知失諧，改寫人們的道德標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。

And you see it for the LCK, whose Kespa orgs are (let’s not mince words here) corrupt oligarchs running a marketing campaign.

LCK就是這樣，Kespa的組織者（我們就不必咬文嚼字了）就是一群腐敗的寡頭集團在搞市場營銷。

T1 is a joint operation by SK Telecom and Comcast. You’d be hard-pressed to find a Comcast fan anywhere in the US but boy howdy do they sure love T1 and Faker.

T1是SK Telecom和Comcast聯(lián)合注資的隊伍。在美國你可能找破頭也找不到Comcast的粉絲，但兄弟這幫人可是喜歡死T1和Faker了。

itzaminsky
That’s most sports, in football most premier league teams are owned by Qatari, Saudi and Russian millionaire, people support them either way, it’s a fact we are willing to accept because they fund our little esports tournament

絕大多數(shù)體育運動都是如此。在足球領(lǐng)域，英超聯(lián)賽的絕大多數(shù)隊伍都是卡塔爾、沙特和俄羅斯的億萬富豪旗下的產(chǎn)業(yè)，人們還是會支持他們，我們樂意接受這一事實，因為他們愿意給我們小小的電競賽事提供資金。

PPPPPPPPPPKP
JDG is just not very popular

JDG就是沒那么火。

Outrageous-Elk-5392
If it was RNG with this performance people would be way more hype I think, JDG just doesn’t have the same notoriety

如果這個表現(xiàn)的是RNG的話，那么我覺得人們可能會熱情地多，JDG確實沒有聲名狼藉到這個程度。

th5virtuos0
Pretty much. I don’t even care about them until someone pointed out their 3peat in LPL and the golden road. Had it been RNG or EDG I would have swallowed

確實如此。我甚至都根本不在乎他們，直到有人指出他們在LPL拿了三連冠，以及黃金大滿貫的事。如果換成是RNG或者EDG的話，那我早就買賬了。

white_gummy
Funnily enough, GenG also has a 3peat in LCK and if they won MSI they'd be in JDG's position right now. Granted we all knew what happened.

有趣的是，GenG也在LCK賽區(qū)拿了三連冠，并且如果他們當(dāng)初贏下MSI，他們就站在JDG現(xiàn)在的位置了?？上覀兌贾腊l(fā)生了什么。

osgili4th
Yeah but most people even here when you can find a people that actually follow Pro LoL have very little idea about LPL. And JDG is amongs the ones with the less popular players in the west outside of Ruler.

沒錯，但是就算在這個論壇里，你能找到那種真的認真觀看LOL職業(yè)比賽的人的地方，他們對于LPL的認知也非常狹隘。并且JDG的成員除了Ruler之外，都是西方受歡迎程度不那么高的成員。

Jozoz
I guess people just hate players who are really hyped and then don't win Worlds. Knight was hated for the same reason Chovy is.

我猜人們只是不喜歡那種賽前吹上天結(jié)果贏不下世界賽的人。左手被這里的人噴，理由和Chovy差不多。

unsanded
But Chovy also gets 100x more love and praise in the West by comparison. Knight has a much smaller fanbase but gets the same hate.

但是相比之下，Chovy也能得到來自西方的更多愛戴和贊美。左手的粉絲基數(shù)要小很多，但挨的噴卻沒少到哪去。

somemodhatesme
Does he? Before this year maybe but lately I rarely see him mentioned negatively.

他有嗎，今年之前或許吧，但最近我很少看見他被噴啊。

QCInfinite
It’s because JDG hasn’t been losing, guarantee you if they lose against T1 (or in finals) the knight flame will resurge better than ever

那是因為JDG今年沒輸過啊。如果他們輸給了T1（或者是總決賽輸了），那左手的清算之日就將到來

TheRealestGayle
Which is strange because they play the best most exciting brand of league.

這挺怪的，因為LPL打的就是最令人興奮的那套打法。

Argschadt
I believe it's because Knight do not deliver in Worlds.

我覺得這是因為左手一到世界賽就變軟腳蝦。

ninofati88
Nah, its more so the fact that historically, fans have lean towards Koreans and see LPL as rivals or 'villians'. Not to mention T1 and Faker, so the 'hero' story gets pushed even further. If theres no KR teams in the semis and its a all LPL battle, JDG would get hyped up more. Now everybody wants them to lose just cause they're on the path of stopping Faker.

不，這是因為從歷史上來看，這里的粉絲都更傾向于支持韓國隊，他們會將LPL視為大敵或者“壞蛋”。更不用提T1和Faker了，所以“英雄”敘事甚至還能推得更遠。如果半決賽一支韓國隊也沒有，只剩下LPL互相打的話，那么JDG的熱度或許會高很多。但現(xiàn)在所有人都盼著他們輸了，因為他們擋住Faker了。

LPL are historically viewed as the bad guys unless you're Uzi (who also starts to get underrated recently after he retired).

歷史上看，LPL一直都是反派的形象，除非你是Uzi粉（最近他在退役之后，評價也開始變差了。）

obigespritzt
It's not a matter of being underhyped, they're just not fan favourites. (Or rather not-liked, not a feeling of animosity but rather disinterest) They're an import-filled superteam of a foreign league (for most people on a primarily western website) under the banner of an organisation that even domestically in the LPL isn't popular at all.

這不是熱度高不高的問題，他們只不過并非粉絲最喜歡的隊伍罷了（不如說是不被喜歡，并不是敵意，而只是沒興趣），他們是一支在外國（對于這個主要用戶為西方人的論壇上的絕大多數(shù)人來說）聯(lián)賽打比賽的、由外援組成的銀河戰(zhàn)艦，并且他們代表的商業(yè)集團就算在LPL內(nèi)部也不是很火。

JDG fans are basically made up of 1) individual player's fans, primarily Knight and Ruler, with the latter probably liking the LCK more than the LPL overall and 2) bandwagoners who just want their region / the region they support (LPL) to do well with JDG being their best shot to win the tournament. That's not to say that if you support JDG you are guaranteed to be either of those two (at least not intentionally), but most people are.

JDG的粉絲基本上由兩類人組成，第一：選手個人的粉絲，主要是左手和尺帝，后者或許比起LPL更喜歡LCK；第二，想要看他們的賽區(qū)或者他們支持的賽區(qū)打出好成績的云玩家，他們覺得JDG是贏下比賽最大的希望。當(dāng)然我不是說如果你支持JDG的話你就一定是這兩者中的一員（至少我沒故意這么說），但絕大多數(shù)人確實是這樣。

On top of that, they're vs the most popular, beloved player in the game in Semis so pretty much everyone who doesn't already cheer for JDG will be inclined to side with T1 solely because they have Faker. As much as a vocal minority despises Faker, most "casual" lolesports viewers, including Chinese ones, absolutely respect or even adore Faker.

此外，他們在半決賽對上的還是最受歡迎和愛戴的選手們，所以基本上所有沒有為JDG加油的選手們都會不得不支持T1，只是因為他們有Faker。盡管有少數(shù)聲音比較大的玩家不喜歡Faker，但是絕大多數(shù)“休閑”的LOL電競觀眾們，包括中國粉絲，都是絕對尊重、甚至喜歡Faker的。

Also, I can only speak for myself, but I feel like (at least on broadcast), JDG get an insane amount of well-deserved hype for their level of play. They have looked like the best team in the world all year and they get credit for that.

此外，雖然我只能代表我自己，但是我感覺（至少從直播來看），JDG憑借他們高超的游戲理解確實得到了應(yīng)得的呼聲。他們一整年都有著世界上最頂級的隊伍的表現(xiàn)，并且他們也得到了承認。

But just because you're the best, doesn't mean everyone has to like / support you.

但是僅僅因為你們是最厲害的隊伍，并不意味著所有人都必須喜歡或者支持你們。

Striking_Material696
Jdg is so strong there isn t much to discuss.

JDG很強大，這一點沒什么好評價的。

T1 has Faker, but also the fact that they lost relatively a lot this year, so all their matches has the possibility to lose, so it is easy to talk about them, or be interested in their matches.

T1有Faker，但還有一點在于，他們今年輸?shù)舻谋荣惡芏?，所以他們幾乎所有的比賽都有輸?shù)舻目赡苄?，因此討論他們，或者對他們的比賽感興趣，是很容易的一件事。
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Curretly JDG plays like it feels inevitable that they will win in the end, they don t need to pull out unexpected picks or strategies, they are just better than everybody they played.

目前的JDG給人的感覺就是他們贏到最后是不可避免的事情，他們并不需要拿出出人意料的BP或者戰(zhàn)略，他們就是打得比所有人都好。

Being not interested in and rating them high is two different things.

給他們打高分，和對他們不感興趣，這兩者并不相同。

Also not many western people watch LPL so there is no "personal" connection

此外，看LPL的西方觀眾也不是很多，所以并沒有什么“個人”的聯(lián)系。

Oriental-s1Gnifier
JDG as a team is not clouted only outside China but in China as well, most ppl support WBG for Theshy and there's also a bunch of BLG fans for the full Chinese team. JDG as a team kind of lacks personality that stands out and fans especially western fans are not familiar with what kind of person they are. Hope JDG can get more fans and recognition by completing the Golden Road, for its not a guaranteed success for any kind of roster. This team is not just 5 top players at their role but also with amazing synergy and coaching stuff.

JDG這支隊伍不僅在國外沒什么討論度，在國內(nèi)也是，絕大多數(shù)人都因為TheShy而支持WBG，并且也有很多為了全華班而支持BLG的。JDG作為一支隊伍，并沒有那種代表性的特質(zhì)，并且粉絲們，尤其是西方的粉絲們對于他們究竟是什么樣的人并不熟悉。希望JDG能夠在完成黃金大滿貫之后得到更多的粉絲和認可吧，畢竟對于任何陣容而言，大滿貫都不是注定會成功的，這支隊伍目前不僅是五個位置上頂尖選手的集合，并且也有著出色的協(xié)同能力和教練團隊。

Junior-Requirement76
What is there to be hyped about? They are a money bought superteam that has been the favorites to win since the beginning of the year. How can you get hyped about that?

有什么好興奮的呢？他們就是一個用錢砸出來的銀河戰(zhàn)艦，自從年初開始就一直是奪冠熱門。這有什么好興奮的呢？

Money bought superteams are lame as fuck. I rather cheer for a superteam like T1 where all of their players minus Keria came up from their academy team and as a team they have never finished below 3 place. That a superteam worth cheering for.

用錢砸出來的銀河戰(zhàn)艦就是他媽沒意思。我寧愿支持T1這種銀河戰(zhàn)艦，畢竟除了Keria之外，剩下的玩家都是來自同一個青訓(xùn)隊，并且這支隊伍從來沒拿過第三名以下的名次，這才是一支值得支持的銀河戰(zhàn)艦。

I'm a fan of JDG players, I think 369 is the best player in the world rn. But cheering for them as a team is hard because there aint much to cheer for.

我是JDG選手的粉絲，我覺得369是目前這個世界上最厲害的選手。但是為他們的隊伍加油很困難，因為真的沒什么好加油的。

Most people might not think like this, but this is just my reason why Im not hyped for them.

絕大多數(shù)人或許不這么想，但這真的只是我個人不支持他們的原因。

WBG, BLG, and LNG are way more hyped LPL teams, especially WBG since no one expect them to be here yet they are in the semifinals. So here for cheering for a WBG vs. T1 finals :)

WBG, BLG和LNG都是更受支持的LPL隊伍，尤其是WBG，因為沒有人預(yù)料到他們能打到這里，但他們竟然打到了半決賽。所以我愿意看見總決賽是WBG打T1。

Pluckytoon
ngl WBG has 2 of the most recognizable names for westerners in xiaohu and fucking TheShy

說實話，WBG擁有西方人最認可的兩個名字，xiaohu和他媽的The Shy。

Camboro
lpl is the least popular region to western fan, on top of that, jdg isn’t even very popular within their own region.

LPL是西方粉絲眼中最冷門的賽區(qū)，并且，JDG甚至在這個賽區(qū)之內(nèi)都不算特別火。

Then to pile on even more, they’ve had pretty boring matchups so far, bds, a play-in team with no expectations, then blg and lng who they’ve played 100 times already. KT could have been a fun matchup, but KT were massive underdogs and performed as much other than game 1. Now they play t1, by far the most popular team in leagues history. We’ll probably never see a team more hyped regardless of how good they are

更重要的是，他們目前為止的比賽對手都挺無聊的，先是BDS，一支進不了淘汰賽的隊伍，沒什么懸念，然后是BLG和LNG，這兩支隊伍已經(jīng)跟他們交手過一百次了。KT本來算是比較有趣的對手，但是KT自己也算是黑馬，并且除了第一把之外打得也跟別的隊伍一樣?，F(xiàn)在他們遇上了T1，或許是英雄聯(lián)盟歷史上最受歡迎的隊伍。我們或許再也看不見這樣一支不論打成什么樣都永遠有熱度的隊伍了。

ZedisDoge
I’d also say JDG doesn’t get alot of hype cause they play very much standard league, their fundamentals are just insane. They aren’t reinventing the game so I think viewer fatigue is real on this team. I think this has something to do with it cause its not just an LPL thing, IG was insanely popular because they had the most ballsy bravado-heavy style.

而且我還想說的是，JDG的熱度并不高，那是因為他們打的是非常標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的英雄聯(lián)盟，他們的基本功簡直強到變態(tài)。他們并不是在重新發(fā)明這款游戲，所以我覺得這個隊伍的比賽看多了真的會累。我覺得應(yīng)該和這個有關(guān)，畢竟這不是LPL的問題，iG當(dāng)年火出天際，就是因為他們是最為肌肉拉滿硬沖硬干的隊伍。

Jragonstar
Super teams are notorious for failing. This team was built for this moment. The the hype isn’t low, it’s just the expectations are high.

變成煙火的銀河戰(zhàn)艦還少嗎。這支隊伍建立起來就是等著失敗的。他們的呼聲并不低，只不過是對他們的預(yù)期太高了。

Fubi-FF
I think one reason is that some people (like myself) just don’t like the idea of a rich team buying out the best players to form a super team and then winning everything.

我覺得其中一個原因在于，某些人（包括我自己）就是不喜歡一個有錢的隊伍把世界上最牛逼的選手買到一起然后組成銀河戰(zhàn)艦贏下所有比賽這種行為。

I also don’t know about JDG being the most dominant team ever though. Yes if you look at just the match results and the golden road status (assuming they get it), sure. But if you look at the games themselves, then no. Many of their matches leading up to their trophies this year are close 3-2 series, especially against LNG, and T1 at MSI, etc. Yes, they ultimately won but they showed that they weren’t unbeatable. In another word, if we were to make a tier list, JDG might still be the best team but most ppl would still put teams in the same tier as them.

而且我也不知道JDG到底算不算是有史以來最有統(tǒng)治力的隊伍。沒錯如果你只看比賽結(jié)果，和黃金大滿貫之路的話（假設(shè)他們能拿到），那確實。但如果你看看這些比賽本身，那并非如此。他們打到今天為止的很多比賽都是非常接近的3:2，尤其是在MSI上打李寧和T1的時候。沒錯，他們最后是贏了，但他們也確實不是無法打敗的。換句話說，如果我們把隊伍按照實力分出檔次，那么JDG雖然仍舊是最厲害的隊伍，但絕大多數(shù)人應(yīng)該還會把別的隊伍歸在和他們同一檔的水平。

Now if you look at some of the older SKT years, especially the one with Marin, you’ll remember how there were literally no team that were even close. They were literally in a tier by themselves.

但是如果你看看SKT過去的那幾年，尤其是有Marin的那幾年，你就會想起來，當(dāng)時基本上沒有一支隊伍是跟他們差不多的。他們真的就是獨一檔。