歐洲妹子來(lái)中國(guó)學(xué)習(xí)遭遇文化沖擊：內(nèi)衣到底能不能和其他衣服一起放在洗衣機(jī)洗？（下）
Is it actually unhygienic to wash underwear in the washing machine or just a cultural thing?
譯文簡(jiǎn)介
兩個(gè)月前，我來(lái)到中國(guó)求學(xué)，目前在大學(xué)里和一個(gè)來(lái)自緬甸（有中國(guó)家庭背景）的女孩住在一起。
正文翻譯
Is it actually unhygienic to wash underwear in the washing machine or just a cultural thing?
用洗衣機(jī)洗內(nèi)衣真的不衛(wèi)生還是只是一種文化現(xiàn)象？
用洗衣機(jī)洗內(nèi)衣真的不衛(wèi)生還是只是一種文化現(xiàn)象？
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Nobody believes that soap and hot water kills bacteria in underwear and other clothes. They are wrong. You’re free to show her evidence (I think the magic number is only like 65C water kills nearly everything) but she won’t accept it. You could also point out that you’ve been doing it this way your whole life, like everyone in Europe and the US, and do not seem to have any kind of health problems whatsoever. This will also be wrong, because Chinese physiology is not the same. You could get a mini washer for 700 rmb or so that can do hot water washing to just side step the whole thing or put bleach in as well for added “protection” but generally there is no winning these arguments. Facts are irrelevant.
沒有人相信肥皂和熱水能殺死內(nèi)衣和其他衣物中的細(xì)菌。他們錯(cuò)了。你可以向她展示證據(jù)（我認(rèn)為神奇的是 65 攝氏度的水幾乎可以殺死所有東西），但她不會(huì)接受。你也可以指出，你一生都是這樣做的，就像歐洲和美國(guó)的每個(gè)人一樣，而且似乎沒有任何健康問題。這也會(huì)被否決，因?yàn)橹袊?guó)人的體質(zhì)不一樣。你可以花 700 元左右買一臺(tái)可以用熱水洗的迷你洗衣機(jī)，這樣就可以從側(cè)面解決這個(gè)問題，或者也可以放漂白劑來(lái)增加“保護(hù)”，但一般來(lái)說(shuō)，這些爭(zhēng)論是沒有贏家的。事實(shí)并不重要。
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Many of them still have a poor mans mentality even when they live in somewhat developed urban environments. I was going to say peasant but it’s a bit mean
即使他們生活在較為發(fā)達(dá)的城市環(huán)境中，他們中的許多人仍然抱有窮人的心態(tài)。我本來(lái)想說(shuō)農(nóng)民，但有點(diǎn)刻薄
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Yeah Chinese people do this. It's a weird nonsense to be honest but they have a lot of beliefs that are entirely separate from wider logical enquiry and are simply traditions/ conventions. It's pointless arguing about it because they won't change their mind. You only lose by engaging in this fight
是的，中國(guó)人就是這樣。老實(shí)說(shuō)，這是一種奇怪的無(wú)稽之談，但他們有很多信仰完全獨(dú)立于更廣泛的邏輯探索，只是傳統(tǒng)/慣例而已。爭(zhēng)論毫無(wú)意義，因?yàn)樗麄儾粫?huì)改變主意。參加這場(chǎng)戰(zhàn)斗你只會(huì)輸
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Yep, like needing to eat more the longer your hair gets (because hair needs food to keep growing?) or needing to eat certain foods when the weather is cold (to warm up your body) to never drinking cold water (because it will make you catch cold easily!) There are many, many more. Thankfully, my wife has largely learned better after living overseas for 15+ years.
沒錯(cuò)，比如頭發(fā)越長(zhǎng)需要吃得越多（因?yàn)轭^發(fā)需要食物來(lái)不斷生長(zhǎng)？），或者天氣冷的時(shí)候需要吃某些食物（讓身體暖和起來(lái)），再比如千萬(wàn)不要喝涼水（因?yàn)闀?huì)讓你容易感冒?。┻€有很多很多。值得慶幸的是，我的妻子在海外生活了 15 年以上，基本上懂得更多了。
So it's okay to burp and fart and cough on people in public but underwear can't be put in a washing machine? ok lol
那么，在公共場(chǎng)合對(duì)著人打嗝、放屁、咳嗽是可以的，但內(nèi)衣就是不能放進(jìn)洗衣機(jī)？好吧，哈哈
Ordinary laundering at 60 degrees Celsius for 10 minutes reduces the total bacterial load by 99.99999% (Lakdawala 2011). I haven’t seen one study that suggests that women’s underwear, if washed properly, poses any more of a contamination risk than any other clothing types. Then again, I don’t get the impression that this belief is rooted in any sort of appreciation for scientific evidence on the issue, or an understanding of the burden of proof upon them to back up their claims, but instead seems to reflect a belief common to many traditional societies that human and in particular female genitalia are somehow exceedingly unclean compared to other parts of the human body (feet, skin, etc). This sort of thinking is not unusual—you find it in South Asia, the Middle East, sub Saharan Africa and a range of indigenous societies globally, but it doesn’t stand up to rigorous scientific evidence.
There also seems to be an oddly sextive concern about the contamination risks of sharing a washing machine used to clean girls underwear, when in reality all clothing and numerous surfaces in our environment harbor some incredibly harmful bacteria and viruses. Why go through all that effort to achieve near-sterilization of underwear given the ubiquity of bacteria and viruses in the broader environment?
Lastly the talk about STDs is surprising and perhaps indicative of the broader motives at play. Nobody gets STDs from someone using your laundry machine. Anyone who says they got an STD from laundry is cheating and trying desperately to hide it.
在 60 攝氏度下普通洗滌 10 分鐘，可減少 99.99999% 的細(xì)菌總量（Lakdawala，2011 年）。我還沒有看到任何一項(xiàng)研究表明，女性內(nèi)衣如果洗滌得當(dāng)，會(huì)比其他類型的衣物帶來(lái)更大的污染風(fēng)險(xiǎn)。不過，給我的印象是，這種觀念并不是源于對(duì)相關(guān)科學(xué)證據(jù)的重視，也不是源于對(duì)證明其主張的舉證責(zé)任的理解，而是似乎反映了許多傳統(tǒng)社會(huì)的共同信念，即與人體的其他部位（腳、皮膚等）相比，人類尤其是女性的生殖器在某種程度上是極其不潔的。這種想法并不罕見--你可以在全球南方、中東、撒哈拉以南非洲和一系列土著社會(huì)中找到這種想法，但它經(jīng)不起嚴(yán)格的科學(xué)證據(jù)的檢驗(yàn)。
此外，人們似乎對(duì)共用洗衣機(jī)清洗女孩內(nèi)衣的污染風(fēng)險(xiǎn)有一種奇怪的選擇性擔(dān)憂，而實(shí)際上，我們環(huán)境中的所有衣物和許多表面都蘊(yùn)藏著一些極其有害的細(xì)菌和病毒。既然細(xì)菌和病毒在更廣泛的環(huán)境中無(wú)處不在，為什么還要費(fèi)盡心機(jī)去實(shí)現(xiàn)內(nèi)衣褲的近乎消毒呢？
最后，關(guān)于性傳播疾病的討論令人吃驚，這或許表明了更廣泛的動(dòng)機(jī)。沒有人會(huì)因?yàn)閯e人使用你的洗衣機(jī)而染上性病。任何說(shuō)自己因洗衣而染上性病的人都是在欺騙和極力隱瞞事實(shí)。
OP
My mind also quickly jumped to the conclusion that she somehow considers women’s underwear to be much dirtier than anything else. Which seems just so weird to me, because how many times do we touch something dirty with our hands (like public bathroom door handles, railings, our phones) and then put them on our clothes? Or we step into a puddle and the dirty water gets into our shoes?
She also mentioned our periods as one of the reasons when I asked why she considers our underwear so dirty…
It actually makes me quite angry in general whenever I hear someone talk about women like they are inferior/dirty, for example also the way women on their period (sometimes also in general) are not allowed to enter certain religious spaces or how periods are still a big taboo in some areas, or how virginity is such a big deal for women etc.
我也是馬上就想到，她是不是認(rèn)為女性內(nèi)衣比其他任何東西都臟。這在我看來(lái)實(shí)在是太奇怪了，因?yàn)槲覀冇卸嗌俅螘?huì)用手接觸臟東西（比如公共浴室的門把手、欄桿、手機(jī)），然后再把它們放到衣服上？或者我們一腳踩進(jìn)水坑，臟水就進(jìn)了我們的鞋子？
當(dāng)我問到為什么她認(rèn)為我們的內(nèi)褲那么臟時(shí)，她還提到我們的經(jīng)期是原因之一......
實(shí)際上，每當(dāng)我聽到有人把女性說(shuō)得低人一等/骯臟不堪時(shí)，我都會(huì)非常生氣，例如，來(lái)月經(jīng)的女性（有時(shí)也包括一般女性）不能進(jìn)入某些宗教場(chǎng)所，或者月經(jīng)在某些地區(qū)仍然是一個(gè)大禁忌，或者貞操對(duì)女性來(lái)說(shuō)是多么重要等等。
I totally agree. I’m a man but I have several daughters at that age, and I do find it sexist to suggest that somehow women’s clothing is dirtier and unsuitable to be co-mingled with other types of clothing.
我完全同意。我是一個(gè)男人，但我有幾個(gè)你這個(gè)年紀(jì)的女兒，我確實(shí)覺得認(rèn)為女性的衣服更臟并且不適合與其他類型的衣服混合是性別歧視。
Common in Southeast Asia (not sure about China) is that women's underwear must washed, hung out to dry, and even put in a separate place in the house.
The reason, it's believed is women menstruate, and it is so powerful it could harm the males!
在東南亞（不太清楚中國(guó)）的普遍現(xiàn)象是，女性的內(nèi)衣必須清洗、掛起來(lái)晾干，甚至要放在屋內(nèi)單獨(dú)的地方。
原因據(jù)說(shuō)是女性會(huì)來(lái)月經(jīng)，它的威力如此之大，甚至可以傷害男性！
Not sure about Chinese culture, but I see people from all cultural ground arguing what should or should not be wash together in the washer.
I belong to the camp “anything you wear other than the shoes can go into the washer together”.
我不清楚中國(guó)的文化，但我看到來(lái)自各種文化背景的人都在爭(zhēng)論什么東西應(yīng)該或不應(yīng)該一起放進(jìn)洗衣機(jī)里洗。
我屬于“除了鞋以外，你穿的任何衣服都可以一起放進(jìn)洗衣機(jī)”的陣營(yíng)。
Scientifically there is evidence that bacteria transfer between clothing and fabric especially in low temp cycles... but that's within the same wash.
If a washing machine is kept properly, ie a commercial cleaning solution is added every few weeks using the machines own deep clean cycle then it's brought down to a minimum.
If there is a lot of concern then a hot wash full cycle can be used inbetween as that all but guarantees sterilizing.
科學(xué)上有證據(jù)表明，細(xì)菌會(huì)在衣物和織物之間轉(zhuǎn)移，尤其是在低溫循環(huán)中......但是在同一次洗滌中。
如果洗衣機(jī)保養(yǎng)得當(dāng)，即每隔幾周使用洗衣機(jī)自帶的深層清潔循環(huán)添加一次商用清潔溶液，就能將細(xì)菌數(shù)量降到最低。
如果真的很擔(dān)心，那么可以在兩次洗滌之間使用熱洗滌全循環(huán)，這樣就能保證殺菌效果。
Okay, here's something that actually happened to me. I always wash all my stuff together, but I had a problem a few years ago, where I got weird rashes... where you don't want them. That's when I learned about these anti-bacterial laundry sanitizers. APPARENTLY (never checked if true) European washing powders come with the anti-bacterial element added in, but in China some brands don't. I started adding sanitizer and the problem went away. But I also got rid of my China-bought pants at the time, because they turned my legs blue and I suspected them as well.
好吧，這是發(fā)生在我身上的一件事。我總是把所有的東西放在一起洗，但幾年前我遇到了一個(gè)問題，我的衣服上起了奇怪的疹子......在你不想要的地方。就在那時(shí)，我知道了這些抗菌洗衣消毒劑。歐洲的洗衣粉中顯然添加了抗菌成分（從未核實(shí)過是否屬實(shí)），但在中國(guó)，有些品牌卻沒有。我開始添加消毒劑后，問題就解決了。但當(dāng)時(shí)我也扔掉了在中國(guó)買的褲子，因?yàn)樗鼈儼盐业耐热境闪怂{(lán)色，我也懷疑是它們的問題。
OP
Yea, someone else suggested Dettol, I think I’ll definitely buy that just to be on the safe side. I also don’t really know about whether European laundry already is anti-bacterial in the first place, but I washed all my clothes in the public washer of my previous student dorm for years and never had any issue whatsoever.
是的，有人建議用 Dettol，我想為了保險(xiǎn)起見，我肯定會(huì)買的。我也不知道歐洲人洗的衣服是否本來(lái)就有抗菌功能，但我在以前學(xué)生宿舍的公共洗衣機(jī)里洗了很多年衣服，從來(lái)沒有出現(xiàn)過任何問題。
This might be as much a Burmese taboo as it is a Chinese one! In Myanmar, it is VERY taboo to mix undergarments, especially those between men and women, because of a widespread belief that mixing of soiled clothes can emasculate a man — it's called 'phon' (?????) in Burmese. This is why women's sarongs were weaponised against soldiers during the 2021 anti-coup protests in Myanmar.
Women in Myanmar are all taught to handwash their underwear separately from the rest of the clothes, especially after they begin menstruating. So this must be a huge culture shock to your roommate, as it is to you!
這可能是緬甸人的禁忌，也是中國(guó)人的禁忌！在緬甸，內(nèi)衣混著是非常忌諱的，尤其是男女之間的內(nèi)衣混在一起，因?yàn)榫挼槿似毡檎J(rèn)為，混著臟衣服會(huì)讓男人失去男子氣概--緬甸語(yǔ)稱之為“phon”（?????）。這就是為什么在 2021 年緬甸反政變抗議活動(dòng)中，婦女的紗籠被用作對(duì)付士兵的武器。
緬甸婦女都被教育要將內(nèi)衣與其他衣物分開手洗，尤其是在月經(jīng)來(lái)潮之后。因此，混著來(lái)洗對(duì)你的室友來(lái)說(shuō)的文化沖擊不亞于你感受到的！
I haven't heard that, but local people have told me to always wash it separately because it keeps the germs from "outside clothing" from getting onto the underwear. I was also advised to put some laundry sanitizer like Dettol or Walsh in with underwear. Actually, they gave me this advice when I kept getting UTIs, and after I started doing this, I don't think I've gotten one since.
Do you think she would relent if you'd wash your underwear with both detergent and Dettol? Then she wouldn't have to feel like there were germs left behind by them.
我沒聽說(shuō)過，但當(dāng)?shù)厝烁嬖V我一定要分開洗，因?yàn)檫@樣可以防止“外衣”上的細(xì)菌感染內(nèi)衣。他們還建議我在內(nèi)衣里放一些洗衣消毒劑，如 Dettol 或 Walsh。事實(shí)上，他們是在我不斷得尿道炎時(shí)給我這個(gè)建議的，自從我開始這樣做后，我想我再也沒有得過尿道炎。
如果你用洗衣粉和 Dettol 洗內(nèi)褲，不知道她會(huì)不會(huì)釋懷一點(diǎn)？這樣她就不會(huì)覺得內(nèi)衣上有細(xì)菌了。
My partner (Filipina) has rules about washing underwear by hand and not washing socks with other articles. I used to just separate our laundry into whites and colors. Now I separate them into his and hers and we each just wash our own.
我的伴侶（菲律賓人）規(guī)定內(nèi)衣要用手洗，襪子不能和其他物品一起洗。我以前只是把我們洗的衣服分成白色和彩色。現(xiàn)在我把它們分成他的和她的，我們各洗各的。
Haha I thought this was just a Caribbean thing but I guess not. This is definitely cultural but you probably can’t convince this person of that
哈哈，我還以為這只是加勒比地區(qū)的事情，但看來(lái)不是。這絕對(duì)是一種文化，但你可能無(wú)法讓這個(gè)人相信這一點(diǎn)
Funnily enough, this caused WWIII between me and my in-laws. When my wife and I arrived in China they noticed I would leave my underwear in the dirty clothes hamper. They started a big fight about how I would give my wife UTI’s and infections and how I was terrible. They would literally bring it up any chance they’d get, then after my wife explained to them that she hasn’t had any UTI’s or infections and we’ve been living together for 5 years, they cooled down a bit. Eventually we bought a washing machine that has a separate washer for underwear so they’d shut up. lol, at first they were upset we used a dryer until they tried our and realized how convenient it was and bought their own. Sometimes people just like starting shit.
有趣的是，這件事引起了我和岳父母之間的第三次世界大戰(zhàn)。我和妻子剛到中國(guó)時(shí)，他們發(fā)現(xiàn)我會(huì)把內(nèi)褲放在臟衣服籃里。他們開始大吵大鬧，說(shuō)我會(huì)讓我妻子得尿毒癥和感染，說(shuō)我這個(gè)人有多糟糕。后來(lái)我妻子向他們解釋說(shuō)，她沒有得過尿毒癥或感染，而且我們已經(jīng)在一起生活了 5 年，他們才稍微冷靜下來(lái)。最后，我們買了一臺(tái)洗衣機(jī)，它有一個(gè)單獨(dú)的內(nèi)衣洗衣機(jī)，這樣他們就會(huì)閉嘴了。起初，他們對(duì)我們使用烘干機(jī)很不高興，直到他們?cè)囘^我們的烘干機(jī)后才意識(shí)到它有多方便，于是就自己買了一臺(tái)。有時(shí)候，人們就是喜歡沒事找事。