美歐不同的種族觀: 我們歐洲人和美國人不一樣，不會像談?wù)摴返钠贩N一樣談?wù)撊说姆N族

Do Europeans categorize “race” differently than Americans?

2024-06-25 yzy86 7854 32 3 收藏糾錯&舉報

譯文簡介

在美國，當(dāng)有人說自己是德國人或瑞典人等時…更像是在說自己的星座，而不是在談?wù)摲N族

正文翻譯

Essentially, the concept that I’ve been told is that if you ask a European their race they will tell you that they’re “Slavic” or “Anglo-Saxon,” or other things that Americans would call “Ethnic groups” whereas in America we would say “Black,” “white,” “Asian,” etc. Is it true that Europeans see race in this way or would you just refer to yourselves as “white/caucasian.”

（美國歷史系大學(xué)生）本質(zhì)上，我被告知的概念是，如果你問歐洲人他們的種族，他們會告訴你他們是“斯拉夫人”或“盎格魯撒克遜人”，或者其他美國人稱之為“族群”的東西，而在美國，我們會說“黑人”、“白人”、“亞洲人”等。歐洲人真的這樣看待種族嗎？還是，你們會直接自稱“白人/高加索人”。

評論翻譯

GrafVonKlotz
As somebody pointed out,
Much of the typical mainstream American talk about race would be considered Nazism in Europe.
This, so much. Every time you try to start thinking about "race", a ghost of an Austrian painter with shitty moustache appears from the toilet and eats your kitten. This is how we have it programmed since 1945...

（波蘭）正如有人指出的那樣，
“很多司空見慣的美國主流種族討論在歐洲會被認(rèn)為是納粹主義?！?br /> 這點(diǎn)太真實了。每次你試著開始思考“種族”時，一個留著該死的胡子的奧地利畫家鬼魂就會從廁所里出現(xiàn)，然后吃掉你的小貓。自1945年以來，我們的腦子就是這樣被編程的…

Christoffre
The concept of "race" feels a bit eugenics. Probably because we don't really use the word.
Instead we tend to use words like colour and origin. But we do understand the American concept.

（瑞典）“種族”這個概念聽起來有點(diǎn)優(yōu)生學(xué)的味道?？赡苁且驗槲覀儾辉趺词褂眠@個詞。
我們傾向于使用膚色和原籍國等詞。但我們確實理解美國人的種族概念。

Fun fact: in French, race means breed. Now picture yourself talking about people's breeds.

↘（法）有趣的事實：在法語中，race（種族）的意思是“品種”。你就想象一下自己在談?wù)搫e人的品種。
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Same thing in Polish.

↘（波）波蘭語也是一樣。

Same in Danish

↘（丹）丹麥語也一樣
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Same in German. Referring to people with the word "Rasse" would also look really bad because last time that happened, it was in Hitler's Rassenlehre of Jews and Aryans.

↘（德）德語也一樣。用“Rasse（種族）”這個詞來指稱別人，觀感上也是特別糟糕的，因為上次發(fā)生這種情況，是出現(xiàn)在希特勒的“猶太人和雅利安人的Rasselehre（種族理論）”中。

Same in Swedish. Met a British couple with a cute dog a while back and asked if I could pet the dog. Hadn't spoken English in a while so I was a bit rusty. I asked "What race is the dog?" and the couple looked at me almost in horror.

↘瑞典語也是一樣。不久前，我遇到過一對英國夫婦，帶著條可愛的狗，我問他們我能不能摸摸這條狗。我已經(jīng)有段時間沒說英語了，所以有點(diǎn)生疏。我問出的話是，“這狗是什么種族的？”那對夫婦幾乎是一臉驚恐地看著我。

Imagine: my gf/bf is a cross between a slanglo-saxon and Japanese. Her/his mother was a mixed breed between a slav and an Anglo saxon. We think this is going to bode well, as both have moderate tempers, and are very friendly once you get to know them.

↘（挪）想象一下：我的女朋友/男朋友是斯拉夫/盎撒人和日本人的混血兒。她/他的母親是斯拉夫人和盎撒人的混血兒。我們認(rèn)為這是個好兆頭，因為這兩個種脾氣都比較溫和，而且一旦你了解了他們，就會發(fā)現(xiàn)他們非常友好。
（譯注：植入了討論狗種的思路/語氣/用詞）

Yes. That's exactly what it sounds like when Americans talk about 'race' and 'mixed-race'.
I know that 'race' is different than 'breed' in English. But it still sounds like they're talking about humans like they're talking about dog breeds. It just sounds very outdated to me & makes me feel really icky.

↘（瑞典）是的。美國人談?wù)摗胺N族”和“混血”時就是這種感覺。
我知道英語中的“種族”和“品種”是不同的。但他們談?wù)撊藭r，聽起來還是像在談?wù)摴返钠贩N。這在我聽來實在是太不合時宜，太讓我作嘔了。

Just think of the shedding, though.
Every summer the Anglo-Saxon sheds shirts, and sits in the garden turning pink.
The cleanup would be constant, much better to go for a nice, low-shedding Iberian.

↘（愛爾蘭）只要想想掉毛那檔子事。
-每年夏天，盎撒人都會脫掉襯衫，坐在花園里，渾身變粉紅。
-需要持續(xù)不斷地做好清理工作，最好能選一只脾氣好、不怎么掉毛的伊比利亞種。

Good point. How about an iberian-greek crossbreed? If you'd want blue eyes and a blonde coat it could get tricky though.

↘（挪）說得好。那伊比利亞-希臘混種怎么樣？但如果你想要藍(lán)眼睛和金色皮毛，就有點(diǎn)難實現(xiàn)了。

Vali32
It is more than ethnic faultlines in Europe do not run along what Americans would call "race". Ethnic conflicts tend to be along lines of religon, language etc.

（挪）歐洲的民族斷層線（裂痕）并不是根據(jù)美國人所謂的“種族”來延伸的。民族沖突往往與宗教、語言等有關(guān)。

I think that's the crucial fact. 'Race' in the US is really a concept rooted in a specific history: slavery, segregation, civil war, reconstruction, civil rights, black consciousness, white flight, affirmative action, BLM, etc.
For most of Europe that history doesn't exist. And even for the UK, which has always been part of the 'Black Atlantic ', there are significant differences.

↘（蘇格蘭）我認(rèn)為這才是關(guān)鍵性事實。在美國，“種族”實際上是一個根植于特定歷史的概念：奴隸制、種族隔離、內(nèi)戰(zhàn)、重建、民權(quán)、黑人意識、白人外遷（至更不多元的郊區(qū)）、平權(quán)法案、黑命貴等。
對于大部分歐洲人來說，這段歷史并不存在。就算是始終屬于“黑色大西洋”（文化/地區(qū)）的英國，也存在顯著差異。

It seems to me that the use of 'race' in the US is indelibly and irrevocably tired up with that specific history.
Although Spain, Portugal, France, the Netherlands and the UK (probably other countries too) were major slave traders, in most cases, the repercussions were largely ended with the end of slavery and the liberation of the colonies. So it was easy to stop using the terminology of race.

在我看來，“種族”一詞在美國的使用，與那段特定的歷史有著不可磨滅也無法撤銷的關(guān)系。
雖然西班牙、葡萄牙、法國、荷蘭和英國（可能還有其他國家）都曾是主要的奴隸販子，但在大多數(shù)情況下，其影響基本上隨著奴隸制的結(jié)束和殖民地的解放而結(jié)束了。因此，停止使用種族術(shù)語是很容易的。

Colonial empires created a different kind of history, even for the UK - one in which race-based division of labour was largely an overseas phenomenon.
The kinds of racism you find in Europe tend to be less based on the systematic oppression of an entire, racially defined, internal class (anti-Black racism in the Americas), and more similar to racism against Latinos in the US: foreigners 'coming over' and 'stealing our jobs' etc.

殖民帝國創(chuàng)造了一種不同的歷史，即使對英國來說也是如此，在這種歷史中，基于種族的勞動分工在很大程度上是一種海外現(xiàn)象。
你在歐洲碰到的各種種族主義，往往不是基于對以種族來定義的一整個內(nèi)部階級的系統(tǒng)性壓迫（南北美洲的反黑人種族主義），而是更近似于在美國針對拉美人的種族主義：外國人“流落至此”，“搶我們的工作”等等。

About your last paragraph: I think there are more proper words to talk about that.
"Racist" americans are racist. "Racist" europeans are xenophobes.
At least, mostly.

↘（意）我認(rèn)為，你那最后一段可以用更恰當(dāng)?shù)脑~來表達(dá)。
“種族主義”的美國人是種族主義者?！胺N族主義”的歐洲人是仇外主義者。
至少，大部分是這樣。

Yes. In Britain for example people used to be called foreigners not immigrants. This comment hits hard

↘（英）是的，比如在英國，以前的人習(xí)慣稱其為“外國人”而不是“移民”。這個評論太有沖擊力了

This is very true Iv read several comments on this website from Americans that have made the connection that because British people once treat the Irish poorly that it must be because the British didn't believe they were "white" like themselves.
Even in the colonial world there was often still a distinction between different European groups, look at south Africa. There are still distinctions made between Boer and Anglo to this day Although in the later years it became more of a European Vs African situation it was somewhat of a forced hand

↘太真實了，我在本站上讀到過一些美國人的評論，他們作出了這樣的聯(lián)想：英國人曾經(jīng)對愛爾蘭人不好，一定是因為英國人不相信愛爾蘭人和自己一樣是“白人”。
即使在殖民地世界，通常不同的歐洲族群之間仍然有所區(qū)別，看看南非就知道了。直到今天，布爾人和盎格魯人之間仍存在區(qū)別，盡管在后來的年代里，情勢逐漸變成歐洲人和非洲人的對立，但這在某種程度上是被迫的。
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As an American, thank you for understanding that our concept of race is rooted in a very specific history, and not just blaming Americans for "constantly thinking about race"

↘作為美國人，感謝你能理解到我們的種族觀念植根于一段非常特殊的歷史，而沒有停留在指責(zé)美國人“滿腦子種族問題”。

In Europe, we have groupings that are similar to American races, in the sense that it's group A compared to group B, and perhaps group A is the majority in a country, group B is a large minority that has a difficult history with group A, while group C is a smaller minority in the same country that has few conflicts. But in America, those groups may follow US racial terms, while in Europe we'd call them something else.

↘（拉脫維亞）在歐洲的我們也有與美國相似的種族分組，也即互為相對的A組和B組，A組可以是一國的多數(shù)群體，B組是一個體量很大的少數(shù)民族，且與A組有一段不和諧的歷史，而C組是同一國中體量較小的少數(shù)民族，和其他群組沒什么沖突。但在美國，這些群體可能會遵循美國的種族術(shù)語，而在歐洲，我們會用其他稱呼來指稱他們。
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An American who knows nothing about Latvia and comes for a visit would quickly conclude the country is incredibly homogeneous. The American would look at people and, thinking in US race terms, note that 99% look white, a few look Asian and most days you're not even going to spot a black person. Very homogeneous, makes Montana looks like NYC by comparison. But applying those categories would be a big mistake - the society is not homogeneous at all, the split is along language and culture lines, not something as visually obvious as skin color.

如果一個對拉脫維亞一無所知的美國人來造訪拉脫維亞，他很快就會得出結(jié)論：這個國家極為同質(zhì)化。美國人會以美國的種族觀念來看待人，他會注意到99%的人看上去是白人，有少數(shù)人看上去是亞洲人，大部分時候你甚至看不到一個黑人。非常同質(zhì)化，相比之下，蒙大拿州看起來就像紐約。但運(yùn)用這樣的分類就大錯特錯了，我們的社會一點(diǎn)都不同質(zhì)，分裂沿著語言和文化界限發(fā)生，而不是膚色這種在視覺上很明顯的東西。

So bottom line, groups are very dependent on the specific country. To an American, it'd be strange how some European countries have ethnic tensions while the whole population is the same race in US terms. To me, a white American is no closer culturally than a black or Asian American, they're all Americans to me, and in my mind the average white and black Americans are far, far closer to one another than the average Norwegian is to the average Serb, both "white" in American terms.

所以歸根結(jié)底，群體怎么分在很大程度上取決于特定的國家。對美國人來說，會很奇怪為什么有些歐洲國家存在種族間的緊張關(guān)系，而美國的所有人口都是同一種族。對我來說，美國白人在文化上和我們的接近程度，并不會比美國黑人或亞裔美國人更近，他們對我來說都是美國人，在我看來，普通白人和美國黑人之間的距離，遠(yuǎn)比普通挪威人和普通塞爾維亞人間的距離近，而挪威人和塞爾維亞人在美國的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)下都是“白人”。

What's interesting is that racism comes as a consequence of xenophobia, classism, etc. “Immigrants are not to be trusted; you're black, so must be an immigrant”. In the US it seems more to directly be “You're black: that's why I can't trust you”. At the end, anyway, it's all out of rejecting who's different one way or another.

↘有趣的是，種族主義是仇外心理、階級歧視等的一種后果?！安荒苄湃我泼?，你是黑人，所以一定是移民”。而在美國，更直接的說法似乎是“你是黑人，這就是我不能信任你的原因”。歸根結(jié)底，都是出于對相異之處的排斥，形式不同罷了。

Droidsexual
As others have said, we don't think about race that often and focus on their nationality instead. What this leads to is an important difference for Americans, we don't identify white americans as part of our group. To us, all colors of americans are more like each other than they are like us.

（瑞典）正如其他人所說，我們不會常常思慮種族問題，而是關(guān)注人的國籍。這就導(dǎo)致了和美國人的一個重要不同，我們不把美國白人看成自己群體的一部分。對我們來說，所有膚色的美國人彼此之間更相似，超過了和我們的相似度。

Which is why we cringe when an American says that they're half [insert European country]

↘（西班牙）這也是為什么當(dāng)美國人說他們是半個X國人（填入某歐洲國家）時，我們會很難堪。

doesntevengohere12
I also think that in general we view it more culturally than the US - if someone was born in Africa but raised and schooled etc in UK or Ireland etc I would say they are more Irish or British than someone with a vague blood line.

（英）總的來說，相比美國，我們更多是從文化角度去看待——如果有人出生在非洲，但在英國或愛爾蘭長大并接受教育等等，我就會覺得他們比某個血統(tǒng)模糊的人更接近愛爾蘭人或英國人。

[dexed]
To be fair, in the US when someone says they're German or Swedish etc...it's more like a horoscope sign then an ethnicity. Does that make more sense?

公平地說，在美國，當(dāng)有人說自己是德國人或瑞典人等時…更像是在說自己的星座，而不是在談?wù)摲N族。我這么表達(dá)就更說得通了吧？

Limeila
If someone asked me for my race I would just be super confused

（法）如果有人問我的種族，那只會讓我摸不著頭腦。

Yes but if someone told you "nique ta race", you wouldn't be.

↘是啊，但如果有人送你一句，“nique ta race（你的種族去死吧）”，你就不會困惑了。

It's about the only context when we have the word "race" in France for humans, otherwise I directly think about dog breeds

↘（法）這大概是法語中對人使用“種族”一詞唯一的語境了，不然的話我馬上就會想到狗的品種。

Worried-1
In Sweden you would mostly discuss your country of origin. I don’t think Ive ever declared race on a Swedish form.

在瑞典，你在大多數(shù)情況下談?wù)摰氖悄愕脑畤?。我不記得我曾在瑞典表格上申報過種族。

It’s illegal to keep registers of people’s ethnicity or “race” in Sweden, so yeah I would be surprised if you ever filled that out.
A few American companies have used forms from the US when starting up Swedish branches. In the US, you are legally required (at least in some states?) to keep track of the diversity among your hires and so they have to have that question in their forms. In Sweden, they were reported to the authorities for breaching so many different laws it as kinda funny to read about. Culture clashes deluxe.

↘在瑞典，登記人們的民族或“種族”是違法的，所以是的，如果你填寫過這樣的表，我反而會驚訝。
有些美國公司在瑞典設(shè)立分公司時，使用過美國的表格。在美國，法律會要求（至少在某些州是如此？）你記錄員工的種族多樣性，因此他們的表格中必須包含這個問題。在瑞典，他們因為違反了太多條法律而被舉報給當(dāng)局，讀到這種事還有點(diǎn)好笑。文化沖突豪華版。
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saintmsent
I don't think many Europeans unironically use "Slavic" or "Anglo-Saxon" as races. Mostly it's used in conversations about language and culture. For example, Czech is a Slavic language, so people from other Slavic countries have an easier time learning it, and culture is somewhat similar

（捷）我認(rèn)為，歐洲人很少會不帶諷刺地使用“斯拉夫”或“盎格魯-撒克遜”來稱呼種族。這類詞大多用于有關(guān)語言和文化的對話。比如，捷克語是一種斯拉夫語，因此來自其他斯拉夫國家的人學(xué)會它更容易，而且文化也有些相似。

Genetic also throwed a wrench into the concept. The discovery that Czech have more of the Germans in them then Austrians shows that Languages and culture really distinguished people.

↘基因也阻撓了這一概念（的使用）。研究發(fā)現(xiàn)，捷克人身上的德國血統(tǒng)比奧地利人還多，這表明語言和文化確實能區(qū)分人群。
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asdrunkasdrunkcanbe
Yeah, this feels about right.
We tend to think of people as ethnicity-first. And by "ethnicity" that usually means "nationality".

對，就是這感覺。
我們傾向于首先考慮人的種族。而“種族”通常指的是“國籍”。

So if we were discussing someone in terms of personality and mannerisms, we would say they're English or French or Chinese, American, Polish, etc.
If someone asked me what "race" I was, I would say "Irish". Because saying "white" feels about as non-descxtive as saying "human".

因此，如果我們從性格和舉止習(xí)慣的角度討論某人，我們會說他們是英國人、法國人、中國人、美國人、波蘭人等等。
如果有人問我屬于哪個“種族”，我會說“愛爾蘭人”。因為答“白人”的感覺就像答“人類”一樣缺乏描述性。

種族 歐洲人 美國人 狗

很贊 ( 3 )

美歐不同的種族觀: 我們歐洲人和美國人不一樣，不會像談?wù)摴返钠贩N一樣談?wù)撊说姆N族

美歐不同的種族觀: 我們歐洲人和美國人不一樣，不會像談?wù)摴返钠贩N一樣談?wù)撊说姆N族