中國唐代人真的崇拜稍微肥胖的女性嗎？
Did people in Tang Dynasty China really adore slightly overweight women?
譯文簡介
網(wǎng)友：唐朝對胖的偏愛是基于一個女人：楊貴妃。這個女孩有點胖。我們不知道她到底長什么樣，但她不是零號身材。有些現(xiàn)代學(xué)者堅持認為她其實并沒有那么胖，但是……我們永遠不會知道。至少當(dāng)時她很胖?；实壅嫘膼鬯?，因為在他們關(guān)系的最初幾年里，她一直欲擒故縱......
正文翻譯
@Shun Bot
There’s a wealth of published research.
The Tang Dynasty’s supposed penchant for BBW is based on a single woman: Yang Guifei.
The girl was kinda chubby. We don’t know exactly what she looked like, but she wasn’t a size zero. There are some modern scholars who insist that she wasn’t actually all that fat, but… we will never know. At least she was known at the time to be fat.
The Emperor genuinely loved her because she played hard to get in the opening years of their relationship. She is also almost single handedly responsible for allowing the An Lushan Rebellion to happen, the 2nd most destructive rebellion in Chinese history, killing some 30 million people (that would be more than the entire population of Europe at the time).[1] Women and politics are always a winning combination.
Eventually, the Emperor was forced by his advisors to execute her or he would be executed. Thus our plus-sized queen met her well deserved end.
The An Lushan Rebellion of 755–763 is considered the 2nd deadliest rebellion in Chinese history (the most deadliest as a percentage of total population killed). And it was all because of one chubby girl who really liked to see a grown man dress up as a baby. This is why China doesn’t do female heads of state.
Like most cultural trends for beauty, they are inspired by examples in the imperial court. This was no different. Yang’s prodigious BMI became well known within the empire and so naturally contemporary artists went along with it.
Like Yang herself, the trend did not last forever, and largely disappeared after the end of the An Lushan Rebellion.
A 19th century Japanese rendition of Yang Guifei. Naturally, she’s topless, cause Japan.
這個問題已經(jīng)有大量已發(fā)表的研究。
唐朝對胖的偏愛是基于一個女人：楊貴妃。
這個女孩有點胖。我們不知道她到底長什么樣，但她不是零號身材。有些現(xiàn)代學(xué)者堅持認為她其實并沒有那么胖，但是……我們永遠不會知道。至少當(dāng)時她很胖。
皇帝真心愛她，因為在他們關(guān)系的最初幾年里，她一直欲擒故縱。她還幾乎獨自一人導(dǎo)致了安祿山起義的發(fā)生，這是中國歷史上第二大破壞性的叛亂，造成約3000萬人死亡（這比當(dāng)時整個歐洲的人口還多）女性和政治永遠是雙贏的組合。
最終，皇帝被他的顧問強烈要求處死她，否則他就會被處死。因此，我們的大碼女王得到了她應(yīng)得的結(jié)局。
755-763年的安祿山叛亂被認為是中國歷史上第二大致命叛亂（占總?cè)丝谒劳鋈藬?shù)比例最高）。而這一切都是因為一個胖乎乎的女孩喜歡看成年男子打扮成嬰兒。這就是為什么中國不讓女性擔(dān)任國家元首。
像大多數(shù)美麗的文化潮流一樣，它們受到朝廷榜樣的啟發(fā)。這次也不例外。楊貴妃驚人的肥胖在帝國內(nèi)廣為人知，因此當(dāng)代藝術(shù)家自然而然地也隨之而來。
就像楊貴妃本人一樣，這種趨勢并沒有持續(xù)太久，在安祿山叛亂結(jié)束后基本上消失了。
19世紀(jì)也有個日本版的楊貴妃。當(dāng)然，她是裸露上身的，因為那是日本。
There’s a wealth of published research.
The Tang Dynasty’s supposed penchant for BBW is based on a single woman: Yang Guifei.
The girl was kinda chubby. We don’t know exactly what she looked like, but she wasn’t a size zero. There are some modern scholars who insist that she wasn’t actually all that fat, but… we will never know. At least she was known at the time to be fat.
The Emperor genuinely loved her because she played hard to get in the opening years of their relationship. She is also almost single handedly responsible for allowing the An Lushan Rebellion to happen, the 2nd most destructive rebellion in Chinese history, killing some 30 million people (that would be more than the entire population of Europe at the time).[1] Women and politics are always a winning combination.
Eventually, the Emperor was forced by his advisors to execute her or he would be executed. Thus our plus-sized queen met her well deserved end.
The An Lushan Rebellion of 755–763 is considered the 2nd deadliest rebellion in Chinese history (the most deadliest as a percentage of total population killed). And it was all because of one chubby girl who really liked to see a grown man dress up as a baby. This is why China doesn’t do female heads of state.
Like most cultural trends for beauty, they are inspired by examples in the imperial court. This was no different. Yang’s prodigious BMI became well known within the empire and so naturally contemporary artists went along with it.
Like Yang herself, the trend did not last forever, and largely disappeared after the end of the An Lushan Rebellion.
A 19th century Japanese rendition of Yang Guifei. Naturally, she’s topless, cause Japan.
這個問題已經(jīng)有大量已發(fā)表的研究。
唐朝對胖的偏愛是基于一個女人：楊貴妃。
這個女孩有點胖。我們不知道她到底長什么樣，但她不是零號身材。有些現(xiàn)代學(xué)者堅持認為她其實并沒有那么胖，但是……我們永遠不會知道。至少當(dāng)時她很胖。
皇帝真心愛她，因為在他們關(guān)系的最初幾年里，她一直欲擒故縱。她還幾乎獨自一人導(dǎo)致了安祿山起義的發(fā)生，這是中國歷史上第二大破壞性的叛亂，造成約3000萬人死亡（這比當(dāng)時整個歐洲的人口還多）女性和政治永遠是雙贏的組合。
最終，皇帝被他的顧問強烈要求處死她，否則他就會被處死。因此，我們的大碼女王得到了她應(yīng)得的結(jié)局。
755-763年的安祿山叛亂被認為是中國歷史上第二大致命叛亂（占總?cè)丝谒劳鋈藬?shù)比例最高）。而這一切都是因為一個胖乎乎的女孩喜歡看成年男子打扮成嬰兒。這就是為什么中國不讓女性擔(dān)任國家元首。
像大多數(shù)美麗的文化潮流一樣，它們受到朝廷榜樣的啟發(fā)。這次也不例外。楊貴妃驚人的肥胖在帝國內(nèi)廣為人知，因此當(dāng)代藝術(shù)家自然而然地也隨之而來。
就像楊貴妃本人一樣，這種趨勢并沒有持續(xù)太久，在安祿山叛亂結(jié)束后基本上消失了。
19世紀(jì)也有個日本版的楊貴妃。當(dāng)然，她是裸露上身的，因為那是日本。
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The Emperor genuinely loved her because she played hard to get in the opening years of their relationship. She is also almost single handedly responsible for allowing the An Lushan Rebellion to happen, the 2nd most destructive rebellion in Chinese history, killing some 30 million people
My kind of woman.
皇帝真心愛她，因為在他們關(guān)系的最初幾年里，她表現(xiàn)得很難接近。她還幾乎一手促成了安祿山叛亂的發(fā)生，這是中國歷史上第二大最具破壞性的叛亂，造成約3000萬人死亡'
就是我家那位女人。
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i caN fix HeR!
我能治好她！
I have never failed to fix her, gracefully end that relationship, fix someone else, and repeat. I even got a Bulgarian fem-NEET into gainful employment.
我從未失敗過，成功地解決了她的問題，優(yōu)雅地結(jié)束那段關(guān)系，然后治好另一個人，再次重復(fù)。我甚至讓一個保加利亞的宅女找到了有酬工作。
The Emperor genuinely loved her because she played hard to get in the opening years of their relationship. She is also almost single handedly responsible for allowing the An Lushan Rebellion to happen, the 2nd most destructive rebellion in Chinese history, killing some 30 million people (that would be more than the entire population of Europe at the time).
That's not her fault, the Emperor was incompetent.
皇帝真心愛她，因為在他們關(guān)系的最初幾年里，她表現(xiàn)得很難接近。她還幾乎以一己之力促成了安祿山叛亂的發(fā)生，這是中國歷史上第二次最具破壞性的叛亂，造成約3000萬人死亡（這比當(dāng)時歐洲的總?cè)丝谶€多）。
這不是她的錯，是皇帝無能。
Xuanzong was responsible for taking the Tang to its zenith in the first half of his reign.
Hardly an incompetent ruler. Rather, a fallen hero.
玄宗在他統(tǒng)治的前半段將唐朝推向了鼎盛時期。
算不上一個無能的統(tǒng)治者。相反，是一個倒下的英雄。
Incompetent also doesn’t mean anyone using the emperor’s incompetence for gain is guiltless. In her case, she introduced her cousin Yang Guozhong to the court and he was pretty much blamed for the An Lushan rebellion. Emperor accepted Yang Guozhong because he was heads over heels for her and because Yang Guozhong himself is good at flattering the emperor. But he couldn’t have been in that position had not for Yang Guifei.
無能也不意味著任何利用皇帝的無能謀取利益的人都是無罪的。在她的案件中，她將她的表弟楊國忠介紹給朝廷，他因安祿山叛亂而受到指責(zé)?；实劢邮軛顕遥且驗樗麑λ窕觐嵉?，也因為楊國忠本人善于奉承皇帝。但如果沒有楊貴妃，他不可能處于這個位置。
Not really. The story goes that all his advisors warned him not to trust An Lushan, but Yang insisted he keep promoting the guy because she found him charming.
并不是真的。據(jù)說，他所有的顧問都警告他不要相信安祿山，但楊堅持要他繼續(xù)提拔這個人，因為她發(fā)現(xiàn)他很有魅力。
Tells a lot that the Emperor was made dumb by a woman, but not the woman's fault because he had been warned. Yet still history blame Yang Guifei because of her gender. That's the Emperor's fault if he was hardly incompetent.
說了很多，皇帝被一個女人弄傻了，但這不是女人的錯，因為他已經(jīng)被警告過。然而，歷史仍然因為楊貴妃的性別而指責(zé)她。如果皇帝不是無能的話，那就是他的錯。
I first learned about this era through a historical fantasy written as a carbon copy of the late Tang, Under Heaven, by Guy Gavriel Kay. Fascinating historical period!
And the more you look into it, the wilder it gets when you consider the Central Asian and Iranian effects from exiled Sasanian princes to Zoroastrian Bukharans serving under An Li.
我第一次了解到這個時代，是通過一部歷史幻想小說《天地?zé)o窮》，該書由蓋·加夫里爾·凱所寫，是晚唐時期的復(fù)刻版。這個歷史時期非常迷人！而且你研究得越深入，就越會發(fā)現(xiàn)它的狂野之處，尤其是考慮到來自中亞和伊朗的影響，從流亡的薩珊王子到在安祿山手下效力的拜火教信徒。
Why is she single-handedly blamed for the An Lushan rebellion when they are other people who far more to be blamed.
為什么安祿山叛亂的罪魁禍?zhǔn)资撬粋€人，而更多的罪魁禍?zhǔn)讌s是其他人。
Because she convinced the Emperor to keep promoting An Lushan into higher and more dangerous military commands. His other advisors warned him against it, but he let his dick get the better of him.
因為她說服了皇帝繼續(xù)將安祿山提升到更高、更危險的軍事指揮位置上。他的其他顧問警告他不要這樣做，但他卻讓自己的雞巴戰(zhàn)勝了自己。
Tbh, that more the emperor’s fault. I think his minister chancellor Li Linfu and Guozhong were more to be blamed
說實話，這更多的是皇帝的錯。我認為他的宰相李林甫和國忠更應(yīng)該受到指責(zé)
@Shun Bot 順博特
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不，我要責(zé)怪那個女人。
Typical Confucian
典型的儒家
Also fat back then does not mean obese. If yang guifei went to Walmart, she would be average. People gotta get their image of plus sized models out of their head.
而且那時候胖并不代表肥胖。如果楊貴妃去沃爾瑪，她就很普通了。人們必須擺脫大碼模特的印象。
I remember there was a hotpot restaurant that offered a dish which was basically a barbie doll dressed in slices of raw lamb. It was called the Yang Guifei set.
我記得有一家火鍋店提供的菜肴基本上是一個穿著生羊肉片的芭比娃娃。被稱為楊貴妃套裝。
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HMMm would love to fondle the mini melons..
Sorry for being an embarrassment to my race , due to Caste systems doctrines and backwards cultures.
嗯，很想撫摸這些小瓜。
抱歉，由于種姓制度和落后文化，讓我的種族感到尷尬。
tittys aside I appreciate the attention to detail in the background of the last painting.
撇開乃子不談，我很欣賞最后一幅畫背景中對細節(jié)的關(guān)注。
Chubby, small lips, small feet, etc
胖乎乎的、小嘴唇的、小腳的等等
Naturally, she’s topless, cause Japan.
lol , AV industry ancestor
當(dāng)然，她是赤裸上身的，因為日本。
哈哈，AV界始祖
she was marriage to his son right and even gad a child with him.
她與他的兒子結(jié)婚了，甚至還和他生了一個孩子。
isn’t that Wu Zetian ?
那不是武則天嗎？
@孫xin
你說的是武則天
Wrong girl.
錯誤的女孩。
The aesthetics of people in the Tang Dynasty were truly problematic
Women's hanfu during the Tang Dynasty were similar to korea hanbok , they were both extremely... ugly
Even if you give the most beautiful person something to wear, you cannot save them
唐朝人的審美確實有問題
唐代女性的漢服和韓國的韓服很相似，都極其...丑陋
即使你給最美麗的人一些衣服，你也無法拯救他們
Women's hanfu during the Tang Dynasty were similar to korea hanbok , they were both extremely... ugly
You’re right. The two are literally identical.
In other news, Biden and Trump are literally the same person because I too, am blind.
唐代女性的漢服和韓國的韓服很相似，都極其...丑陋
你說得對。兩者在字面上是相同的。
在其他新聞中，拜登和特朗普實際上是同一個人，因為我也是盲人。
The reason was that the fatter you were, the wealthier you were, as it meant that you were fed well. This made fat women very much adored and desired. However, there was always a limit. Fat and fat to the point where your skin just melts off your body are completely different. And although being fat was a desired trait, it doesn't mean that skinnier women weren't desired. It was a diverse society, so it obviously would have many different people with many different standards. However, being overweight was still the main desired trait.
Even one of the most popular Hanfu styles at the time allowed fat women to have beautiful aesthetics. Ruqun was a very favored Hanfu that revealed the cleave, but completely covered the waist, yet made the attire flow to the wind. Favored hairstyles were buns or styles that allowed the roundness of plump faces to shine. Foot binding wasn't popularized at this time yet, since women were extremely liberal at this time.
One of the Four Beauties that lived during Tang was Yang Guifei, and she was described to be quite plump and round. Imagine the beauty standards back then that enabled women of the heavy side to be considered as one of the 4 most beautiful women in ancient China.
因為你越胖，你就越富有，因為這意味著你吃得好。這讓胖女人非常受人喜愛和被渴望。然而，總有一個限度。脂肪和脂肪到皮膚剛剛從身體上融化的程度是完全不同的。盡管肥胖是一種理想的特征，但這并不意味著苗條的女性不受歡迎。這是一個多元化的社會，因此顯然會有許多不同的人，有許多不同的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。然而，超重仍然是主要的期望特征。
即便是當(dāng)時最流行的漢服款式之一，也讓微胖的女性擁有了美麗的審美。儒裙是一種非常受歡迎的漢服，它露有點開叉，但完全遮住了腰部，卻使衣服飄逸如風(fēng)。最受歡迎的發(fā)型是發(fā)髻或能讓豐滿圓潤的臉閃閃發(fā)光的發(fā)型。當(dāng)時纏足還沒有普及，因為當(dāng)時的女性非常自由。
唐朝四大美女之一的楊貴妃，被形容為豐腴圓潤。想象一下當(dāng)時的審美標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，使得厚重的女性被認為是中國古代四大美女之一。
The preference was not unique to Tang China. The love for plump women was also reflected in Renaissance and Baroque European painting. Rubens’ paintings can serve as prime examples (thus the adjective “rubenesque.”)
這種偏好并非唐朝獨有。對豐滿女性的喜愛也體現(xiàn)在文藝復(fù)興和巴洛克時期的歐洲繪畫中。魯本斯的畫作可以作為最好的例子（因此有形容詞“魯本斯風(fēng)格”。）
The photos are beautiful!
照片很漂亮！
Beautiful photos
漂亮的相片
Correct if I'm wrong, but according to Youtuber, there was no evidence that fat women were desired during, the rumours that was spread due to fear of emperors having sexy women distract them which had consequences, thus some scholar wrote urge men to desire women not because of luv or attraction, but it would put them off carnal desires and focus more on their work and confuis stuff.
I could be wrong though
如果我錯了，請正確，但根據(jù) Youtuber 的說法，沒有證據(jù)表明胖女人是被渴望的，因為擔(dān)心皇帝讓性感的女人分散他們的注意力而傳播謠言，從而產(chǎn)生后果，因此一些學(xué)者寫道敦促男人渴望女人不是因為愛或吸引力，而是因為這會讓她們遠離肉欲，更多地關(guān)注她們的工作和生活。
但我可能是錯的
Come on. Plumpness was considered desirable across many human cultures, societies, and eras. The reason being that excess body fat signalled opulence. It also insured prolonged survival during famines, and would make it easier for the woman to carry children (so long as not in so much excess as to put unhealthy amounts of pressure and weight onto the spine) to term, being less dependent on consistent influx of food from outside to do so. In skinny women, an acute lack of food may trigger a miscarriage from the body, and chronic malnutrition can cause issues in fetal development and congenital defects.
Of course, men always had personal preferences as well, but plump women were socially acceptable and historically desirable in many different time periods and cultures and it had little to do with the physical appeal.
The skinny/fit being sexy is more of a modern concept, because of the abundance and availability of food (and the proliferation of obesity), which makes fit/skinny look great in comparison. It is also seen as being a green flag signifying health, moderation, hard work (working out), and self restraint on the part of the woman.
拜托。在許多人類文化、社會和時代中，豐滿被認為是可取的。原因是過多的身體脂肪標(biāo)志著富裕。它還確保了饑荒期間的長期生存，并使婦女更容易生育孩子（只要不過度，以免對脊柱施加不健康的壓力和重量），減少對持續(xù)流入的依賴外面的食物來做到這一點。對于骨瘦如柴的女性來說，嚴(yán)重缺乏食物可能會引發(fā)流產(chǎn)，而慢性營養(yǎng)不良可能會導(dǎo)致胎兒發(fā)育問題和先天缺陷。
當(dāng)然，男性也總是有個人喜好，但在許多不同的時期和文化中，豐滿的女性在社會上是可以接受的，并且在歷史上是令人向往的，這與身體吸引力無關(guān)。
緊身/健美的性感更多的是一個現(xiàn)代概念，因為食物的豐富性和可用性（以及肥胖的擴散），這使得健美/緊身的性感相比之下看起來很棒。它也被視為一面綠色旗幟，象征著女性的健康、節(jié)制、努力工作（鍛煉）和自我克制。
Skinny being beautiful may be a more recent Western fashion??
瘦為美可能是最近的西方時尚？
That's so wierd to be more desirable for being more unhealthly and having a propensity to lack self control…
這太奇怪了，因為更不健康并且有缺乏自我控制的傾向而更令人向往……
You're applying modern morals to bygone times.
你正在將現(xiàn)代道德應(yīng)用于過去的時代。
HMM I didn't know that Chinese women wore Indian style Bindi in between their eyebrows.
嗯，我不知道中國女性在眉間也有印度風(fēng)格的賓迪。
譯著：印度女性傳統(tǒng)妝容中位于眉心的紅點
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Those aren't Bindi. Those are just decorative makeup that resemble one. They had no religious meaning. Just there for beauty.
那些不是賓迪。那些只是類似于化妝品的裝飾性化妝品。它們沒有宗教意義。只為美麗而存在。
Bindi (sindhur actually) is a social thing to mark married status of a woman, though unmarried maidens wear small bindis. And they are considered quite beautiful.
It is considered to be 1 out of 16 types of beautification (solah-singar) esp for a newly wed.
賓迪是一種社會事物，用于標(biāo)記女性的已婚狀態(tài)，盡管未婚少女會佩戴小賓迪。他們被認為非常美麗。
它被認為是16種美中的一種，尤其適用于新婚夫婦。
Yes. But these for Tang women weren't social either. It was just for pretty sake. It also came in hundreds of different forms, a la many flower styles. It can also be put on your cheeks and dimples, or next to your eyes.
是的。但對于唐代女性來說，這些裝飾也不是宗教性的。這只是為了漂亮。它還有數(shù)百種不同的形式，以及許多花型。它也可以放在您的臉頰和酒窩上，或靠近您的眼睛。
Small tattoos were/are used in different ways similarly in some parts of India.
在印度的某些地區(qū)，小紋身以不同的方式使用。
Ah, this isn't tattooed. It's drawn on. They change styles everyday.
啊，這不是紋身。是畫上去的，他們每天都在改變風(fēng)格。
We also have something called Mehendi (paste of a particular herb) which changes colour to brown used to draw small “temporary tattoos” but it's mostly used on the hands and sometimes to dye hair reddish brown.
The patterns last for a fortnight or so.
我們還有一種叫做海娜（特定草藥的糊劑）的東西，它會將顏色變成棕色，用于繪制小型“臨時紋身”，但它主要用于手部，有時用于將頭發(fā)染成紅棕色。
這些效果會維持兩周左右。
As I said, this is not a social nor a religious thing. It wasn't Bindi.
正如我所說，這不是社會問題，也不是宗教問題。這不是賓迪。
Yeah, I got it.
I just felt it such a familiar thing esp the girl with the red dot in the middle of the forehead…
Anyway, quite beautiful if I may say so.
是的，我明白了。
我只是覺得這很熟悉，尤其是那個額頭中間有紅點的女孩……
不管怎樣，如果我可以這么說的話，相當(dāng)漂亮。
Ancient cultures in general favor fatter women.
First of all, the “fat” in ancient time is very different than fat by modern standards. The desirable kind of “fat” in ancient time is about average build at most.
Second, in ancient times, people have a lot less nutrients. The ability to accumulate fat means you are relatively wealthy and if there is a famine, you are much more likely to survive.
Third, remember English such as “child-bearing hips”? Small, skinny and petite women are a lot more like to die during child birth in ancient times. Most guys would prefer their wives live past the childbirth.
古代文化普遍偏愛較胖的女性。
首先，古代的“胖”與現(xiàn)代標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的“胖”有很大不同。古代理想的“胖”最多也就是平均身材左右。
第二，在古代，人們的營養(yǎng)物質(zhì)少很多。積累脂肪的能力意味著你相對富裕，如果發(fā)生饑荒，你更有可能生存。
第三，還記得“生育臀部”等英語嗎？古代身材瘦小、骨瘦如柴的女性更容易在分娩時死亡。大多數(shù)男人都希望他們的妻子能活過產(chǎn)后。